fantasy cliches - Page 3 - Writers Forum

Rahvin · 11-14-2007, 11:09 AM

And don't make every politician a scheming corrupt scumbag who would sell his own mother for a penny (not matter how similar this may be to the real world state of affairs). Governments siply cannot function with only the Good and Benevolent King who Struggles Valiantly Against said Evil Politicians but Ultimately Will only Triumph with the Aid of the Hero.

Ilasir Maroa · 11-14-2007, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Talia_Brie

The problem I generally have with discussions of cliches in fantasy is that people tend to clonfuse generic conventions with cliche.

"Oh, wizards in fantasy is so cliche'

No it's not. It's a convention of the genre. While some people get away without it, in general, it's not fantasy without magic and/or wizards (refer to the previous comment re: HP Lovecraft).

There are certain things that appear in fantasy that do not appear in other genres. That does not make them cliche, merely specific to fantasy. Make sure you understand the difference.

Here's what I think about when I think about fantasy cliches:

1. A D&D style group of adventurers.lol
2. People whose job titles are things like, Healer, Thief, and Ranger, lol
3. A pure quest narrative, seeking a magical item that will save the word (e.g. the Sword of Shannara).lol
4. Elemental magic - that's a big one, and bloody hard to get around. The first thing you need if you're going to right fantasy is a good system of magic.
5. Trilogies.lol

There are others, but I'm too drunk to type them all out.

To be continued...

I agree with everything but 4. It's bad elemental magic that's a cliche. There are some very creative and imaginative systems out there with an actual system behind them, and that involve more than just "this guy does fire, she does wind...etc".

Rambling Sage · 11-14-2007, 05:27 PM

this is all great stuff but i especially like VigorousMastication's view that too many characters in fantasy seem to have no faults, and that faults should definitely be incorporated.

what do you guys think?

Ilasir Maroa · 11-14-2007, 06:29 PM

Great skill is boring. Pathetic attempts to do something that end in failure are great. Bring on the faults, children.

Rambling Sage · 11-14-2007, 08:20 PM

yea i agree
i was thinking of emphasizing my main characters tendency to be able to get things done, but when it matters most, he fails

ClancyBoy · 11-14-2007, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ilasir Maroa

I agree with everything but 4. It's bad elemental magic that's a cliche. There are some very creative and imaginative systems out there with an actual system behind them, and that involve more than just "this guy does fire, she does wind...etc".

Yeah, Captain Planet. Adding "heart" to make a total of five elements puts the C.P. system over the edge into brilliant territory.

VigorousMastication · 11-14-2007, 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rambling Sage

yea i agree
i was thinking of emphasizing my main characters tendency to be able to get things done, but when it matters most, he fails

Hahahahaha, a choker hero; he cracks under the pressure when when the odds are against him. Sounds good

jewellz · 11-14-2007, 11:41 PM

Ok here's my opinion -- fantasy = something that would never happen in reality. That's it for me. But when you think about it, how does Barnes and Noble classify books like LOTR? Are they in the fantasy section? (I honestly don't know.) And if Haryy Potter wasn't a kid's book, what shelf do you think that would be on? But anyways, I think that sure, LOTR was heavily influenced by much old english literature and mythology and such, but I think Tolkein's approach was unique in that he was so adept at developing his own fantasy world's linguistics and histories. I think that what he did was cliche in some ways, but really original in many respects.

But I have my own question about cliches. I'm writing a story and sometimes I feel like it is cliche as well, but I really don't know? What do you guys think? Here's a brief synopsis - a 12 year old girl is abducted by the monster that lives under her bed, and is taken underground into an alternate world. (she falls directly from the sky, but is aided by the monster, who turns out to be an ally.) Anyways, the world is more of a primal society, but is similar to the real world in many ways. Also, it is run by children. The reason for that is that magic (which is on its way towards becoming extinct - for reasons too complicated to explain here), is only accessible to children (because once a child reaches the age of 13 their brain loses its ability to comprehend magic), although it is very hard to come by. The children rule the adults because they have the power of magic, and the world ihas been ruled for hundreds of years by a 12 year old boy who never ages, but has the magic of death. (Meaning - he can kill a person by pointing at them. This causes the person to grow old before your very eyes, shrivel up, and turn to dust.) But once again, there is a very complicated reason as to why he can do this, etc.

Anyways, on a rate of 1 - 10, how cliche does this sound??

Mike C · 11-15-2007, 12:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jewellz

Anyways, on a rate of 1 - 10, how cliche does this sound??

Not sure, depends how you write it, but you've described, almost word for word, something I saw on TV a couple of years ago.

ClancyBoy · 11-15-2007, 01:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jewellz

But I have my own question about cliches. I'm writing a story and sometimes I feel like it is cliche as well, but I really don't know? What do you guys think? Here's a brief synopsis - a 12 year old girl is abducted by the monster that lives under her bed, and is taken underground into an alternate world. (she falls directly from the sky, but is aided by the monster, who turns out to be an ally.) Anyways, the world is more of a primal society, but is similar to the real world in many ways. Also, it is run by children. The reason for that is that magic (which is on its way towards becoming extinct - for reasons too complicated to explain here), is only accessible to children (because once a child reaches the age of 13 their brain loses its ability to comprehend magic), although it is very hard to come by. The children rule the adults because they have the power of magic, and the world ihas been ruled for hundreds of years by a 12 year old boy who never ages, but has the magic of death. (Meaning - he can kill a person by pointing at them. This causes the person to grow old before your very eyes, shrivel up, and turn to dust.) But once again, there is a very complicated reason as to why he can do this, etc.

Anyways, on a rate of 1 - 10, how cliche does this sound??

3 - not cliche at all. That sounds like a really great idea, actually.

Might depend on how you handle the details of the magic though. If it's a kind of childlike magic and not D&D magic I'd say you're golden.

Talia_Brie · 11-15-2007, 04:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ilasir Maroa

I agree with everything but 4. It's bad elemental magic that's a cliche. There are some very creative and imaginative systems out there with an actual system behind them, and that involve more than just "this guy does fire, she does wind...etc".

Agreed.

Ilasir Maroa · 11-15-2007, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ClancyBoy

Yeah, Captain Planet. Adding "heart" to make a total of five elements puts the C.P. system over the edge into brilliant territory.

Very funny, not sure why you quoted me here though...

ClancyBoy · 11-15-2007, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ilasir Maroa

Very funny, not sure why you quoted me here though...

Your post was the last one in the thread that mentioned elemental magic.

Ilasir Maroa · 11-16-2007, 07:55 AM

lol...

WriterDude · 11-17-2007, 04:31 AM

I liked the kiddie magic story, although it does remind of that Nemo In Dreamland, or whatever it was called. Might have been Kirby In Dreamland, or something like that. You know what I mean.

As for fantasy, there's one strong point I want to remind you of. If fantasy is going to work, ignore potential clichés like the old wizard, farmboy hero, scantly clad heroine and all that. The most important thing to remember is to make the world and characters believeable. If I don't believe in the world and characters, you can write story that wins the Nobel Price for all I care. I still won't read it. Harry Potter is a good example. The first two books were brilliant, and even the third one had it's moments. But the world was too stupid to be believable, so I got bored rather quickly. I eventually read the fourth and fifth book as well (borrowed them, of course) just to see if they would get any better, but no. They somehow got worse. Personally, I think the whole Harry Potter story should have ended after the first book. Voldemort was defeated, Harry knew who he was and all that. What's left to tell? "Voldemort is dead!" "YAY, finall.... what'ya mean until the sequel?"

And even when he finally returned in the flesh at the end of book four, it took three books more to defeat him. And besides, he not only returned in the end of the fourth book, but everyone seemed to ignore him in the fifth. What the hell was that about? "Voldemort has returned! We are in terrible danger!" "Relax, there are still three books to go." "Oh. Nevermind."

If you have a world and characters you and I can believe in, work out your story. A cliché or two can be forgiven if the story makes sense. Think the all-powerful wizard, like good, old Obi-Wan Kenobi from Star Wars. He counts as a wise, old wizard and "of course" saves the party occasionally. But that said, would the movie have worked without him? I don't think so, even if Luke had found a way to become a jedi anyway. (like reading an old parchment telling about Yoda, for instance) And so what if Luke were a farmboy. He's still a great character. The important part to remember while he is the main hero, he is still just one of the party. When he went to Dagobah, the others had to help themselves. For that matter, Han even had to risk his own life to save Luke on Hoth. I know this technically isn't fantasy, or at least not traditional sword and sorcery fantasy, but there are many similarities. There are a lot of clichés in Star Wars, but the world is so well thought out I can believe in it and the characters - and that is a big reason why the first three movies worked perfectly, and the prequels stunk worse than my gymsocks. The old movies were run-down, dirty old worlds like here on earth, but the worlds in the prequels were too flashy and glorious. For that matter, that's exactly why I like Anne Rice so much. Regular Hollywood vampires are just that. Vampires. They come out at night, scare a few people, bite a few necks and return to safety before dawn. They can only be killed by chopping of their head, the traditional stake through the heart, being burned and so on. Anne Rice's vampires are real people with real problems who happens to be vampires. It's very easy to identify with them and even feel sorry for them. Again, it's not fantasy, but you see the point. The world and characters has to be believeable. The people who live there isn't just there to populate the world. They are there because they live there.