WriterDude

The difference between Hairy Pothead... I mean, Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings is that Harry Potter takes place in the real world with real people and real issues and mixes it with a magical place. In other words, Harry Potter could very well have been real, if we had that kind of magic in the real world.

Lord of the Rings on the other hand creates a whole new world with several races, magic, a medieval setting and all that, creating, well, a fantasy.

Sure Tolkien ripped of mythologies as well, but he dared to do something new about it and made it his own. His entire world is even called Middle-Earth, which is taken directly from norse mythology. (the gods live in Asgard, the queendom of death is called Helheim, and the humans live in between - in Midgard, or in english, Middle-Earth.) What Rowling does is taking things others have done before her and never explains any of it and never creates something new with it. Even worse, most of the things she include doesn't even seem to have a purpose in her stories other than to make a fun scene or two. How important where the giant spiders, griffins, trolls or any of those anyway? Tolkien had a purpose for everything he included. The Balrog might be questionable, but it certainly had a key moment in the story. Ents? Big part of the story. Orcs? They are the story, in a way. Same with hobbits, elves, dwarves and all that. And sure there was only one dwarf in the story, but he had his entire background with a dwarf kingdom or some sort as well. This again means the world as we know it is far bigger than in the books, so no matter how detailed the books were, they were only a part of the whole story. And again, all Rowling did was rip off things people had done before and include it for no better reason that "it might be cool".

I'm not saying fantasy needs to be a medieval, european world, but I think "true"# fantasy has to be. It's just my opinion, of course. There are other variations like modern or urban fantasy, dark fantasy, japanese fantasy, sci-fi fantasy (Warhammer 40k, for instance) and countless of others, but as the medieval, european world was around in the very first fantasy stories (The Hobbit, Lord of the Rings, Conan etc), it's a fundamental part in true fantasy. Or maybe a better term would be "old-school fantasy".

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WriterDude

BTW aren't we getting off-topic here? We aren't supposed to discuss what fantasy is, but what fantasy clichés we should avoid. If any of you want to continue this discussion, just PM me or start a new topic.

Sorry, RambingSage, we'll get back on track now.

And Ilasir, think logically. You said HP. My signature is from HP Lovecraft. Sorry for the misunderstanding, but you do realize he could be rated as fantasy the same way Harry Potter could? No wizards, sure, but there certainly are magic, ancient gods and even a new world just beyond our reach. (although they find at least parts of it in "The Call of Cthulhu") Which is just as well.

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Rahvin

I think the main defining thing of fantasy is the created world. Fantasy is not set in the real world, or any version of it. Nor is it set in any recognisable version of the past. In this sense, Rowling's work is not fantasy, as it is set in the real world, with the addition of magic, while Tolkien's is, as it is set in a completely fabricated world (with other influences, yes, but the world itself is not the real one).

Medieval worlds are more common, because otherwise, the boundaries between fantasy and science fiction become very blurred. There's always that quote "any technology sufficiently advanced will be indistinguishable from magic", or something like that (I'm working from memory here...). What is the difference between a fantasy story with aliens and technology (as well as monsters(aliens) and magic), and a sci-fi story with monsters and magic (as well as aliens(monsters) and technology)? Not much.

I think the main cliche to avoid is the benevolent wizard character. I get so annoyed when I see that guy crop up everywhere... He's like a walking, talking, magically rewarding plot device (cookie for anyone who gets the reference). He potters around with a Gnarled Old Staff(tm) and robes, solving all the difficulties that the hero(s) encounter. Annoying as hell.

Also, there's the Arrogant Prince, the Mighty but Reluctant Warrior, and the Insignificant Hero (who it is suddenly revealed is actually very significant, due to some Ancient Prophesy or somesuch). Oh, and don't forget the Corrupt Advisor, or the Female Elf Warrior. Oooh, and we better not leave out the Big Bad Demon and his Legions of Terror (generic otherworldly baddie and his generic otherworldly army).

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Rambling Sage

i don't think there is such a thing as true fantasy because it exists in all different forms, ranging from medieval fantasies to urban fantasies. In the long run, they are all fantasies.

as for who invented fantasy, it really is a matter of opinion. Many say Tolkien did because his fantasy was the first to bring real fame and notice and whatnot to the genre. However, did Tolkien invent fantasy? I don't think so. Fantasy goes way back in the history of literature, as far back as the Merlin legend which first appeared in the 12th century i think, and has been changed/rewritten many, many times. But even that isn't really the first fantasy. The farthest back fantasy goes that I know of is Beowulf, the heroic epic poem written by some monk in either 700 AD or 1010 AD.

So basically I don't think there are rules or guidelines to the genre of fantasy, but rules or guidelines or whatever have developed based on what has been written and generally accepted as fantasy.

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Rambling Sage

Rahvin, as far as your view of the typical wizard character, what if he wasn't the guy who pops in and is used as a plot device, etc, but what if the story was actually about him, like he is the hero.

i mean, like you said, so many fantasies have the reluctant hero or whatever and his motley band of friends with a quest or whatever and they get help every now and then from an eccentric wizard. But what if the story was from the angle of the wizard, with him as the main character and stuff?

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Amara-J

There's plenty of ranting on other Internet articles / forums for you to discover what "bad fantasy / fantasy cliches" is. Go have a look on Google.

How to write a best selling fantasy novel. - is probably the funniest one ever.

In the meantime, I think the wizard idea is teetering on the brim of cliche, but it's up to you as the writer to make something new about it. The "old wise mentor and farmboy as hero" IS overdone, however. Remove it, or de-emphasize it as much as possible if there isn't anything new you can bring to the overused idea.

Suggestions for what is *good* fantasy and what isn't:

I suspect most of us wannabe writers start out with a safe premise - falling back on Tolkien, or Harry Potter, or Dragonlance, or even your AD&D rulebook, to name a few. That's where all your cliches start to pile up. Those four sources aren't bad, but in the hands of a copycat (not saying you are), it'll go to ruin fast.

If you want to see how you can stay in the realm of 'fantasy', but with a new approach, I recommend reading Ursula Le Guin's "Earthsea" series. "Earthsea" has always been about the people and their personal struggles - their pasts and their choices color the world, bringing a sense of realism.

It also helps that "Earthsea"'s premise is NOT the usual medieval-fantasy staple: there are hints of primitive cultures, illiteracy, animistic worship, and there are people of color. The latter point is what Le Guin strongly emphasizes, as she has said that fantasy doesn't have to be about only white persons being the heroes. The Kargs, a race in Earthsea, are white; but from the POV of the locals, they are strange and exotic barbarians.

If you're anything like me *chuckles*, you'll start out with a premise that you think is good, but over time you'll find it's gone stale. With some imagination, and years behind you, and personal growth, the 'fantasy world' you have in mind will change and grow over time. The old setting for my stories, Morath, was originally your average D&D rip-off, populated with orces and elves and dwarves with Dark Lords to boot. These days, it's an entirely different universe.

Good luck, and hope to hear from you.

~Amara-J

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VigorousMastication

WritingDude: Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings are both fantasy. One is modern fantasy, and the other is high fantasy. Both, however, are distinct and valid sub-genres within the fantasy genre.

Ilasir: I caught the comment comparing fantasy and science fiction, but I see them as the very opposite of each other. Sure, science/magic is a plot device used to further the ideas, but the underlying philosophies are quite different. Dystopian and Utopian science fiction, and speculative fiction, have always been about the modern world. There's a greater onus on the author to push the boundaries of imagination, and to come up with original ideas that are not only interesting, but plausible.

Fantasy - in particular, high fantasy - has always been about escapism, and the genre has difficulty progressing beyond the 'quest' format. Not only that, but there are far too many Tolkien wannabes out there for my liking. Elves and wizards are huge cliches, as are the perfect warriors that populate fantasy. They rarely eat, sleep, and they have no weaknesses. They're so perfect, they probably never stop to take a crap. Do perfect people fart? I don't know. In any case, it's the imperfections that make a character believable, and most fantasy writers don't understand that.

My humble opinion.

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WriterDude

We could discuss what fantasy is all year long and don't come closer to an answer we agree on, so again, in my opinion "true" fantasy is the original, medieval european, sword and sorcery fictional world like Tolkien, D&D, Dragonlance, Eragon (crap book, though), BeoWulf (excellent poem, not looking forward to the movie), and so on. However, we already run into a problem when we mention Narnia. Strange no one have commented on that, but no matter. Narnia starts in the real world, and it takes quite some time before the girl (Lucy, was it?) finds the magical place called Narnia. From this moment, it spins into a "true" fantasy setting, yet there's still the real world just beyond the door. And no only that, but if you remember the TV-series back in the eighties or read the books, all four of the children stayed as Kings and Queens in Narnia until they were really old, but when they returned to the real world, they were all young again. (btw did this happen in the movie? It was so crap I have blocked it from my memory like a bad trauma.)

I guess the best we can settle for is that a Tolkien-world is "true", "old-school", "high" or whateva! fantasy, Harry Potter is "urban" or "modern" fantasy and so on, but there's nothing wrong with mixing and matching genres to create something new and refreshing. Narnia could be said to be an "urban high" fantasy, perhaps. Anne Rice would be "urban dark" fantasy (vampires, magic, werewolves, the whole works for a classic fantasy setting). True, it's in the real world, but that's where "urban" comes in. It's dark, gothic, creepy and all that, so it's also "dark" fantasy.

In the end, does it even matter what we call it? A great story is a great story, no matter what we call it.

As for clichés and the "wizard as hero", it's kinda been done before several times. Raistlin is one of the most powerful wizards in all of Dragonlance, so he has his own Raistlin Chronicles. (only two books, yes, but still). Dalamar The Dark starts with said Dalamar as a slave and turns into a powerful wizard through the book. And what about Harry Potter? Isn't he a powerful wizard? Sure they are all wizards and he's "the chosen one", but again, there's a wizard right there as the main character. For that matter, isn't Luke Skywalker some sort of wizard? He doesn't have spells or anything, but he is still the Star Wars version of wizards.

What could be interesting is a story set in a world with very poor magic. A bit like Lord of the Rings, but without Gandalf, Saruman or any other wizards. The only magic users are clerics (good and evil) and they need the favour of their god to be granted magic useage. This means they spend most of their tine in the churches or temples and generally obey only their god or goddess. These clerics can help the heroes if the heroes visits them, but the cleric refuse to join them on their adventure as it would take them too far away from their gods. Or even better, perhaps one or two does come along, but has an agenda of their own and don't really help the heroes much? The clerics could even secretly work against them. Kinda like a low-powered Gandalf the Black secretly working for Sauron, but acts like he works for Frodo. He helps Frodo from time to time, yes, but only so Frodo can deliver the One Ring to Mordor. (of course, the reader should get hints of this from time to time to avoid a cheesy "Surprise! I'm evil! Bwahahahaha!" moment.)

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Talia_Brie

The problem I generally have with discussions of cliches in fantasy is that people tend to clonfuse generic conventions with cliche.

"Oh, wizards in fantasy is so cliche'

No it's not. It's a convention of the genre. While some people get away without it, in general, it's not fantasy without magic and/or wizards (refer to the previous comment re: HP Lovecraft).

There are certain things that appear in fantasy that do not appear in other genres. That does not make them cliche, merely specific to fantasy. Make sure you understand the difference.

Here's what I think about when I think about fantasy cliches:

1. A D&D style group of adventurers.
2. People whose job titles are things like, Healer, Thief, and Ranger
3. A pure quest narrative, seeking a magical item that will save the word (e.g. the Sword of Shannara).
4. Elemental magic - that's a big one, and bloody hard to get around. The first thing you need if you're going to right fantasy is a good system of magic.
5. Trilogies.

There are others, but I'm too drunk to type them all out.

To be continued...

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Mr Sci Fi

Peripatetic fantasy.

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alanmt

avoid these cliches, unless you have a unique spin:

farm boy hero with secret heritage
wise old wizard mentor
"chosen" ones or prophesied ones who must leave their peaceful life for a quest to save the world
dragon riders
mary sue main characters
elves who are basically superhuman mystical immortals

other problems:

inconsistent magic system (how magic is used doesn't make sense)
overpowered magic system (the characters get so powerful that nothing really challenges them - one wizard can wipe out an army)
poor economics (agriculture/trade, etc must be in the background - self-sustaining secret cities of huge size in the desert or underground without explanation always irritate me)
poor ecology in your world (overpopulated with ravenous meateaters, for example, who would starve if adventurers didn't obligingly come along and get eaten - e.g. "whose feeding the orcs?", rivers that are a mile wide 20 miles downstream from their source, etc)
evil actors without motive other than "I am evil"

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Faustling

I really hate this one. If the shepherd/farm boy/boy scout can save the world because of a prophecy he should be able to do it without it as well. After all, the prophecy merely explain he will do it, not how he should do it.

Does anyone know of any books where the prophecy is screwed up, the chosen one dies before fulfilling his quest or something similar? It would certainly be a nice change.

alanmt

WHAT NOT TO DO:

"The way is blocked," announced the elf, his keen elven senses sensing the stone wall across the dungeon passage even before it was illuminated by the eldritch glow of the party members' fabled magic swords.

"Who the $%^&# put a *&^%$ing wall here?" swore the warrior-slut, her breasts heaving in frustration against her skimpy chainmail bikini.

"This was not here the last time I came through here, 83 and 1/2 years ago, when I was but a middle-aged mage," said the wise old wizard wonderingly, leaning on his staff with a weariness that belied his intense magical power.

"We must get through!" cried the young Hero fervently, taking a break from practicing his swordsmanship, which was how he whiled away the monotonous journey, thus explaining how a naïve young farm boy entered the cave and an invincible warrior will emerge on the other side. He rapidly put his leather jerkin back on over his smooth, muscular sweat-glistening chest, which was heaving slightly from the exertion of becoming a master swordsman. "The world is counting on me to find the Fountain of Eternal Nobility so that I can hatch the Dragon of Silver Majesty and ride her to Mount Cataclysm to destroy the ancient evil relic of sw'yr-boll'ox and defeat the all-powerful nameless dark lord and his right-hand minion, who I secretly suspect is my long-lost father! If we don't, the world will be plunged into chill dark times for all . . . time!"

"Relax!" said the dour dwarf gruffly, in his taciturn manner, after lightly tapping the wall with his war hammer and battle axe. "This wall is weak - not dwarven made by my deep-dwelling brothers of the stone. In a day or three I can chip away enough mortar to push a block through, and we can continue."

The sound of orcish and ogrish drums sounded deeply, behind the party, back down the passage way they had come, followed by an eerie otherworldly high unnatural banshee scream like the cries of five hundred virgins and eunuchs being dissolved alive in the stomach of some really huge monster.

"Ach!" cried the elf with ominous nervousness, given that his usual lighthearted sylvan nature was never broken. "It's the lurghoyf!"

"AHHHHHHHH" screamed the beautiful but useless princess in fright, to remind the reader that she exists. "Hero, save us!"

"And I am already tired," sighed the wise wizard, who has in fact been tired for several decades, but who has time to rest when the world is in danger?

"&^%$ this!" swore the warrior slut.

"There has to be a secret passage!" The Hero's sudden inspiration brought hope to the party. He pulled a Halfling out of his pack, his servant/gardener/thief extraordinaire, which was busy munching on its third breakfast, and sent it forward to the wall. "Galbo, find the secret passage! Good Halfling! And we will keep the evil ones at bay until you find a way out."

"I $@*&ing hope the secret passage is not higher than three feet off the ground!" swore the warrior slut, a drop of sweat running down her shapely smooth leg to rest on top of her leather boot. As the elf knocked an arrow to his bow, the rest of the party turned to face the oncoming monsters with grim resolution, drawing their magic weapons with a sharp clang that belied the fact that the weapons had been unsheathed a moment before to provide light so they could see where they were going.

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dwellerofthedeep

Ha, good one alanmt. You get a +rep for that rediculuos drivel.

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VigorousMastication

I think you're onto something there mate . cracked me up

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