meldy

See this makes so much more sense than simply "throw out the first 4000 words"

Why couldnt you have typed out this instead of accepting on faith that I didnt just think you were being and ass. Which is what I thought you were being in case there is some doubt.

So far I have only had adults read it. I have not had anyone, except Steve, and that was early on, take a critical look at it so I really have no idea where it belongs.
I am just writing it. I figure all that will work out later on. Being new to this whole process I am probably just being naive.

And yes, off to see if I can figure out this dialogue again.
Thanks

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I thought about building you a raft to survive the river of tears I am crying for you but the worlds smallest violins just arent a realible source of lumber. And that cross you are nailing yourself to seems bouyant enough anyway- G. House.

Foxee

Meldy, don't get defensive but this was honestly my first thought as well. That's not to say that your first 4k words should not have been written! It's a good idea to spin the story out and THEN worry about cutting. Chances are, you'll give the same information later in the story, it'll be better there, and you'll find that you can get rid of a lot of your first thoughts that you wrote at the beginning because they'll be redundant.

I often write the story then cut the whole first paragraph, first page, or whatever. Whatever gets me into the action, really.

It also does depend on your genre to some extent. If you're writing a romance maybe this works (setting up character relationships or something) although I'd still have something happen right off the bat. If you're writing suspense you've already lost your audience.

One question that I'd have for you is... does this long intro bore you at all? Do you find yourself skipping parts of it? Do you wonder (and yes you do because this is what your original post was about) if you're boring the reader?

Sounds like this will be something to look at when you have written the story and are ready to edit it.

Dialogue can be written more than one way. I'd suggest finding a 'how to' book on dialogue and read it. Study some of your favorite authors and see how they handle it. See what possibilities there are. Until then do your best...don't stop writing while you learn.

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RomanticRose

One thing that new writers often do not understand is that there is a lot of backstory, character development, and exposition that the WRITER has to know to write the tale effectively. However, the READER does not necessarily need all this information.

There are some advocates of the "start-in-the-middle" technique. Begin with your action, then work both backward and forward from that, and it will be clearer how much backstory is really needed, how much character sketches are needed (does the fact that the hero wet the bed until he was 14 REALLY factor into the story? If not, why do the readers need to know that?)

I do tons of backstory and character work; only about 10-20 percent actually ends up in the finished novel. With practice you get more of a feel for what is necessary and what isn't. Just keep getting words on paper and finish the story, then worry about cutting and revising.

Rosalinda

Mike C

They're both the same thing.


Apology accepted.

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meldy

Okay....I get it.

And I almost agree. I think last night I was tired and I have worked so hard on what I have that to have someone tell me to just throw it out was a bit like being told to throw out my firstborn.

But I see what everyone means now since I have gotten into a bit more action. It just makes more sense to introduce the character rather than explain her life story and then say, oh, and by the way, here she is.

I am not going to throw it out though since everyone who has read it has loved it (outside this board anyway lol). Granted they could very easily have been being nice. I am just going to spin it a bit differently and put it somewhere else.
Maybe........

It's a work in progress lol.


And yes, I definately think I need a 'How To' book on dialogue.

Beyond the he said, "___"/"_____" she replied I am totally lost and am sure my punctuation is all wrong.

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I thought about building you a raft to survive the river of tears I am crying for you but the worlds smallest violins just arent a realible source of lumber. And that cross you are nailing yourself to seems bouyant enough anyway- G. House.

lin

You're saying a thirst for lesbian robot vampires isn't mature??? Well, same to you, fella! And more of it!

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CaptainFreedom

If you're going to try and sell the book, the hook (the thing that makes the reader want to keep reading) has to be on the first page at least. The first paragraph if possible.

The main reason isn't the reader. I think most people would give you about ten pages to hook them, but an agent isn't going to read past the first page if the hook isn't there. Worse yet, their bonehead intern who picks through the mail probably won't even get that far.

You might be able to get away with putting off the hook a little bit if you wrote a couple of successful books, and Stephen King can put his grocery list between two covers and it will be a best seller.

Since we're all trying to get our foot in the door though, hook has to be up front.

CF

ClancyBoy

Dear God you're a prick.

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"Mother Hitton's Littul Kittons wait for you down there. Little pets they are, little little little pets. Cute little things, they say. Don't you believe it. No man ever saw them and walked away alive. You won't either. That's the final dash, flash. That's the utter clobber, cobber." --Cordwainer Smith, Norstrillia.

meldy

I dont really agree with the warm hearted sage part..but yes, his advice is sound.

It could, and should have been worded differently IMO. As it appears I just got defensive and wrote off the advice as having come from an egomaniacal asshole who got great joy out of making people feel like crap.

It wasnt until he explained why that I actually stepped back and thought about it.

What I find a bit frustrating about this whole board is people seem to assume we are all psychic and published, experienced writers capable of taking simple comments and transforming them into their true meaning.

Or maybe I am just too dumb to keep up with all the brilliant and incredibly helpful people on here.

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I thought about building you a raft to survive the river of tears I am crying for you but the worlds smallest violins just arent a realible source of lumber. And that cross you are nailing yourself to seems bouyant enough anyway- G. House.

lin

Wherever you read that, it's absolute total bullshit. By which I mean, complete bullshit. In other words, the shit of a bull. Some bulls are just like that.

If you want to figure that out, ditch all those stupid "how to write gooder" books and pick up some books that have sold. Look at the first paragraph or page and see if it even has anything to DO with the plot, much less contains the hook that you see on the blurb page and the agent reads in the query.

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meldy

I find it hard to believe that a rejection letter reads something like:
"Thanks for your submission. It sucked. Throw out the first half and then maybe you might have something workable."

I would assume its more like a general "Thanks not interested" type of reply.

But I have never received one so obviously I dont know.

Back to Mike C's comments I would have been more satisfied had he been either vague (no it wont work) or to the point like he was when he explained his reasoning. Rather than leaving me wondering if I was just wasting my time with no real idea of what I should do to correct the situation or why it was wrong to begin with.

It just would have been more helpful to get all the information rather than a snippet.

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I thought about building you a raft to survive the river of tears I am crying for you but the worlds smallest violins just arent a realible source of lumber. And that cross you are nailing yourself to seems bouyant enough anyway- G. House.

Foxee

Maybe, Meldy, but Mike C is what he is... sort of a phenomenon all on his own. Critiquing his critiquing isn't going to get you real far.

Believe me, I'm just echoing what others told me. LOL...stick around long enough and you'll find yourself passing on the info.

If you can get past his blunt delivery there's often a few flakes of gold behind it. Or just flakes. Either way you get to decide if you want to take his advice or not. Or anyone's.
LOL...I see it more as a mass of assorted humanity stuffed into a forum, shaken briskly, and then questioned. You never can be real sure what you're going to get but it just might be interesting and will probably be delivered with a certain amount of attitude.

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Try the POSTCARD FICTION CONTEST! Closes for entries November 19. Can you write a story in 350 words or less?

CaptainFreedom

Don't listen to Lin, Meldy.

He's a depressive psychotic who never sold anything. Oh yeah, and he's so poor he can't afford a down payment on a free lunch. He can't afford to pay attention. I heard that somewhere...

Seriously though, I've got three or four paperbacks at home, and they all have the hook up front. I'm not saying it has to be something like cops standing over a body - "The thing is, this victim is missing his tongue too - it looks like there's a serial killer on the loose!!!", but there's got to be something there to keep the reader turning the pages or to make him take the book from the shelf to the register.

The no hook thing might've been okay a few years ago, but now agents and publishers are swamped with crappy submissions.

CF

Hobbes

As you've surely noticed by now, meldy, this forum is full of particularly bitter people. Just take what you can, and keep on writing.

ClancyBoy

MikeC is some kind of editor. He understands the process and has picked up a lot of repeated information about writing along the way. He is not a writer though.

Mammamaia is neither a writer nor an editor nor an agent. Why she comes here is a mystery.

Lin is a published author. I have read his writing and it is very good. I would take his advice over anyone else's. Also he looks like Ernest Hemingway.

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"Mother Hitton's Littul Kittons wait for you down there. Little pets they are, little little little pets. Cute little things, they say. Don't you believe it. No man ever saw them and walked away alive. You won't either. That's the final dash, flash. That's the utter clobber, cobber." --Cordwainer Smith, Norstrillia.