CaptainFreedom

Yeah, I guess you're right - I should just let people shit on me whenever they feel like it and not say anything back. Is that more like your idea of tough skin?

CF

ClancyBoy

Getting turned down by an agent is business. Being insulted in a forum is personal. I can tell the difference, as I am sure can many.

__________________
"Mother Hitton's Littul Kittons wait for you down there. Little pets they are, little little little pets. Cute little things, they say. Don't you believe it. No man ever saw them and walked away alive. You won't either. That's the final dash, flash. That's the utter clobber, cobber." --Cordwainer Smith, Norstrillia.

lin

Are chicks into gerbils too? I thought it was just a gay guy thing.

Or is "line your gerbil cage" some new sexual innuendo I'd missed.

And guys, let's try to keep to avoid adolescent angst in here, okay? Let's keep the angst menopausal.

__________________

Mystery

If we are going to make high school analogies here, you would be the kid that goes around showing off his fists and muscles but when you piss someone big off you throw insults till you get your ass kicked, and then throw some more as you run away.

IF you really lack the will, self confidence and are so drowned by insecurity to let someone on an internet forum offend you this deeply with an unintentional and mildly offensive at best insult, I think you need to revise your actions to taking a bit of therapy before you call anyone. A condescending tone is something you shrug off and ignore the person for, otherwise you do what you just did in this threat, make me think you ARE a complete idiot, coward and jerk off.

Stop and think for a second, "would I be this much of an asshole if this was face to face?".

Clancyboy, "personal" would be maia insulting his mother, not maia being slightly condescending and indirectly calling him an idiot, without the intention of it.

__________________
Imagine what you could do if you didn't require sleep... Now calculate all the hours you've lost so far with sleep, Insomnia ain't seeming so bad now is it?

Pete_C

Just as an aside, agencts and publishers worth their salt will tell you that they can decide on a novel within three pages, and that's usually just to make sure. By the end of the first page of a mss they've made their minds up. Imagine how many single pages they read in a day, and then try to consider what feedback they could give.

"No, sorry, she's left the company."
That's a code for something....

Foxee

Uhm... just a reply to the original post.

I have a bad feeling about calling. Business people really hate to be bugged and if you would like to submit something else to them later it might be better if they don't remember you at all than if they remember you in a bad way.

It would be frustrating to have no feedback from them but I don't think it's unusual? I don't have direct experience so not sure on that score.

__________________
Try the POSTCARD FICTION CONTEST! Closes for entries November 19. Can you write a story in 350 words or less?

CaptainFreedom

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mystery If we are going to make high school analogies here, you would be the kid that goes around showing off his fists and muscles but when you piss someone big off you throw insults till you get your ass kicked, and then throw some more as you run away.

That doesn’t really make too much sense, but here watch...I can try to piss you off too: (take notes, buttwipe)

Why are you overreacting to my post? It’s really embarrassing that you’re acting like such a hypocritical bitch. Why can’t you act more like a man and let bygones be bygones? You’re just misinterpreting my words and showing everyone how stupid you are.

If you respond to this you’ll just prove my point. You should just ignore me.

Are you biting on your mouse cord yet? That’s how to piss someone off, bonehead.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mystery IF you really lack the will, self confidence and are so drowned by insecurity to let someone on an internet forum offend you this deeply with an unintentional and mildly offensive at best insult, I think you need to revise your actions to taking a bit of therapy before you call anyone. A condescending tone is something you shrug off and ignore the person for, otherwise you do what you just did in this threat, make me think you ARE a complete idiot, coward and jerk off.

Okay badass. Please don’t beat me up. Please! Please!

Give me a break, freak. Take a look at my last post and see if it warrants your response. Of course it doesn’t, but this one does. Then again, if you write back, you’ll have to eat your own words won’t you? Mmmm...yummy!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mystery Clancyboy, "personal" would be maia insulting his mother, not maia being slightly condescending and indirectly calling him an idiot, without the intention of it.

Yes Clancyboy, Mystery is right. Maia has more than 1000 posts – she’s allowed to write anything she damn well pleases. Just like Mystery.

And if we mortals respond, then we’re just overreacting. But if Mystery writes some totally uncalled for, and barely legible chain of insults – then it’s advice. har har har (That’s me laughing at you Mystery)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete_C Just as an aside, agencts and publishers worth their salt will tell you that they can decide on a novel within three pages, and that's usually just to make sure. By the end of the first page of a mss they've made their minds up. Imagine how many single pages they read in a day, and then try to consider what feedback they could give.

I was thinking the same thing at first, but I didn’t want to sound paranoid. Then after I saw that the postmarking date coincided with the day they said she left, I figured it could be true.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Foxee Uhm... just a reply to the original post.

I doubt they’ll remember me, and the call would only take a couple minutes. So, I figured it wasn’t that big of a deal.

If you think about how many submissions they get, if they always sent out a form rejection for a requested manuscript, they would be getting calls all the time. I mean, how many people would call back? 20% maybe?

Or maybe it’s really just me...Gulp.

CF

Kimberly Dawn

As you said, being a writer *is* being shit on and saying nothing about it. This is the life of a writer start to finish. It's not pleasant, but that's why the lot of good and professional writers are silent when something bad is said about them.

Miss Snark said through her years of blogging that *no* DO NOT ask for feedback when there is none. That again is no. She says that she won't remember said manuscript. She has 100 a week she had to read in her slush pile, then the ones she requested she will make a second pass, slightly remember why she wanted to see more (sometimes she requests to see more to make sure it's a rejection). Someone specifically asked your question and she said that you don't otherwise you risk looking like an idiot.

If that's not enough... how about Michael A. Stackpole? In the Secrets Podcast which you can get for free, he said you take the criticism, and just *go* with it. Don't ask for feedback, just know that the person thinks it not right for them. If you really need feedback take it to a Writer's Workshop.

And if that's not enough, Rejection Collection shows that often underlings also read manuscripts at big agencies. *Especially editors*

If that doesn't work, there's always Writer's Digest, Writer's Market's intro, stories of rejection, agents complaining about people asking why.. and about conducting yourself in a business-like manner. Miss Snark herself said that it's enough to know you got rejected, move on.

You can also try other websites and see that it's still no.

By now your manuscript has probably met Mr. Shredder. So lick your wounds and move on. If you wanted support, and not advice, I think this is the wrong forum--so be honest with yourself. There are places on the net to commiserate too.

Because if you can't handle a rejection--then it gets just that much harder from here on in. You should concentrate on the next batch of agents you wish to send it to.

A writer's life is like this:

You start at the bottom and there are people that tell you that writing is a hobby--you can't make money doing it. How are you going to support yourself, your writing is a piece of crap. This can range from family members, to teachers, to friends, to that guy across the street you barely know. If you have any sense you say nothing and prove them wrong by...

you have your shiny new manuscript. The awe of silence you expect from your detractors has died down a little... but people still are calling it a hobby, and new voices, louder tell you that you suck. This is now other writer's editors, people who say they know better than you. So you shut them up by...

you have your edited and re-edited manuscript... This is awesome you are going to submit when someone points out a gross error.

(rinse and repeat the last step.)

And now you have learned the business, you have your cover letter, send it in the mail and tell someone. They think it's great.. a month later you get your first rejection letter. It reads the typical Dear Sir or Madam. It has typos in it, a stamped signature, and the bastard even spelled your story title wrong. But if you're good you can shut up and...

submit again.

(rinse and repeat the last step at least 100 times.)

and now you have feedback on some of your stories. You think you're getting better. An editor wrote you a ONE LINE COMMENT!!! (this is a big deal.) Yes, to everyone else it looks pathetic. But to you it's shiny and sparkly. You earned it. and after a while...

god, how old are you now? You've been submitting how long? Was it ten or twenty years? The rejection slips are piling up. And now you've gotten it... you've gotten published. You know the industry in and out. The fodder for the fire is your old manuscripts.

So you crack open the NY Times, get feedback from readers. You expect them to glow only to find that a lot of them hate it and tell you, or like it and tell you. You find that some people hate the theme, the prose, compare you to people you have no notion of being compared to and find yourself at the bottom. Meanwhile if you're popular enough your publisher has contracted you to write another book. Your agent will be ecstatic. If you refuse them then they will label you difficult, and the small business of publishing will know overnight you are difficult. You will be (excuse the butchering for a joke) a one book wonder. So you crack down to do the next book and...

god you've lost fans. Where did you go wrong. They didn't like it compared to the last book. You could go all Anne Rice and do a tirade on Amazon calling your readers and fans not smart enough to comprehend your vampire novel, and then be forced to switch genres and write a Jesus book, forever infamous with people that your name is synonymous with such an event... or you can...

write the next book and say nothing... gain and lose more fans, get another load of reviews where the reviewer never read said book, but only the blurb. rinse and repeat, and by the time you're like Anne McCaffrey, you will have the Wisdom to shut up when someone says something bad about you. Because you may not know this, but book signings are the same thing, and no matter how "big" you are there are people who don't know you and will judge if they want to buy your book by how they interact with you. So sit down, write, and keep your head low, and with luck and kicking, you too can be published. This business and most creative businesses is an exercise of masochism. If you want to be a sadist, be an editor or agent. Otherwise you'll frankly sink after the first book. (Last was a generalized statement to any writer reading this).

Note: I've gotten rejected 5 times so far and never written back to the editor once. I've spent more time writing the next story to submit instead. And yes, I did dance around happily when I got a one-line written feedback. Especially the handwritten stuff. And yes people still called me nuts for being joyful about that. That's why I'm telling you to suck it up and move on.

Foxee

Yep, maybe, but you weren't sure or this thread wouldn't exist and the phone call would already have happened.

Quote:

If you think about how many submissions they get, if they always sent out a form rejection for a requested manuscript, they would be getting calls all the time. I mean, how many people would call back? 20% maybe?

I think that is indeed the question to ask yourself.

You're most likely right and you won't be remembered in any case (nothing personal...I'm referring to anyone who would make the call) but I doubt you'll get the feedback you want.

I'd just move on. Then again, I'm so non confrontational.

If you DO make the call I hope you post how it went. Could be entertai...er...educational for all of us.

Out of curiosity, do YOU think there are things about your manuscript that could be improved? Or do you perhaps have a hunch that this was just not the right publisher? If you have an instinct toward one option or another you could base your next actions on that.

__________________
Try the POSTCARD FICTION CONTEST! Closes for entries November 19. Can you write a story in 350 words or less?

lin

That's an over simplification that can warp your approach.

What they're really saying is they REJECT manuscripts based on the first few pages. You can tell immediately if the writer sucks.

The closer the MS is to being publishable or "repable" the more they have to go into it. The creme ends up having several people read it and discussing it among themselves.

The worst thing that can happen to an MS is not being rejected on the sample...it's being so close to what people want that you keep getting asked to send manuscripts and they get read over for months and months before being rejected. So you are paying to ship whole reams of paper around and spending years.

Of course that's also the route that can eventually lead to hitting the jackpot.

(See post above: "writers get shit on.")

__________________

CaptainFreedom

Hey Kimberly, next time you're in Germany I'm going to buy you a happy meal. Come on, man - it's not that bad.

<-- that thing is supposed to be Ronald.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Foxee Out of curiosity, do YOU think there are things about your manuscript that could be improved? Or do you perhaps have a hunch that this was just not the right publisher? If you have an instinct toward one option or another you could base your next actions on that.

I already called on Monday, Foxee. The summary is on page two of the thread somewhere. (yep, you'll have to read through the caca to find it)

As far as the book, I'm not too sure. As far as structure, grammar and that sort of thing it's fine, the plot kicks ass, and there are lots of good jokes and memorable scenes , but there are things that are really hard for the author to be objective about, for instance:

- whether the plot is too predictable
- whether the characters are developed enough to seem real
- whether the reader cares about the individual characters

There's also some real science stuff that I explain in the book, but I have to make sure it doesn't seem canned, it can't be boring, and Joe Bagodonuts has to be able to understand it.

That sort of thing is really hard to see for yourself (for me anyway), and you can't trust your friends to be honest about it either. So that's the kind of thing I was hoping to get from the agent. You know, "I didn't take it because the hero was a horse's ass." or something like that. I didn't expect them to pull out their ten pages of notes and read them to me.

I find it hard to believe that the culture of ass-kissing that a lot of writers assume is out there is real. I mean, are we really in a situation where we're too insignificant to call a prospective business partner? I doubt it.

CF

Foxee

Ronald looks like he's at least three sheets to the wind...maybe four. Too bad there's not a way to put the clown smilie together with the drunken one.

ah, yep, that's why I missed it. It's pretty funny about the person you talked to sounding nervous. You publisher stalker!
How long ago did you finish it? Objectivity of my own writing usually comes with a little time.

Honestly, though, I'd just look for a different place to submit it even though it doesn't really sound like your book got a fair shake. Don't wear out your welcome, you know? Maybe come around to them again if you decide to make some changes to your ms or something?

NNgg...edited what I had here...I had completely misread one word...lol

Business people are miserly with their time and getting through is tough. You may want to read a bit about business to business sales to work out how to get past the 'gatekeeper'.

Anyway, I don't think your call was a horrible idea but I'm not surprised that it didn't really get you anywhere. So what's next?

__________________
Try the POSTCARD FICTION CONTEST! Closes for entries November 19. Can you write a story in 350 words or less?

ClancyBoy

I can see how you can filter the obvious trash that way.

If what you say is correct, only the style matters and content is irrelevant. The plots of most good novels don't begin within the first three pages.

__________________
"Mother Hitton's Littul Kittons wait for you down there. Little pets they are, little little little pets. Cute little things, they say. Don't you believe it. No man ever saw them and walked away alive. You won't either. That's the final dash, flash. That's the utter clobber, cobber." --Cordwainer Smith, Norstrillia.

Hodge

With enough style, even the most ridiculous plot can be pulled off.

I'd read a story about an ancient Egyptian mummy with a preference for cowboy boots and hats that terrorized an old folks home that Elvis Presley (who didn't actually die) and JFK (who has been turned into a black man by the government) were spending their last days.

And in fact I have.

__________________
Science

Kimberly Dawn

Want citations? And I want to know when was Kimberly a man's name?

Let's start out at the top... I'll list it out... (You'll quickly learn I read about authors more than books..)

Let's start with Jane Austen and L.M. Montgomery.

Both of their families and society were against them. L.M. Montgomery's family said she wasn't respectable for writing a novel. And my own mother says after I write a story, you should get some work... Yeah.... uh huh. Post a thread about parents that don't understand, and there you go... you get a lot. Here it's better to shut up and move on.

Need a more recent one? Diana Wynne Jones. She's dyslexic, and you know how many people told her she couldn't do it? Listing on this side would probably take a while to finish...

And then for the editing stage... look at --rejectioncollection.com-- . I'm serious. You get 100 rejections, then you are likely to be published. If you want verification of those who complain don't get published, there is always Holly Lisle *and* Michael A. Stackpole (both have free books on this... Mugging the Muse and The Secrets). Of course Miss Snark also. If you aren't humble, you don't get published.

And then after getting published? Oh easy... Anne Rice on amazon, book review section in your local newspaper, all of the reviews on amazon.com.

As for a humorous showing of how publishing works... listen to Escape Pod 110, free online, called Frankie the Spook. Escape Pod (search down)

For signings, Steven King, Holly Lisle, Michael A. Stackpole, Writer's Digest. ^_^

I haven't been doing nothing but writing all these years, I've been reading writing books too. That analogy I wrote it pretty much what I read. I need to know my competition, why authors persist versus those that fail, and those that throw tantrums and complain to Agents are the first to get the ax. Thus the masochism. In the end it weeds out the people who really want to write and have the savvy to keep their mouth shut in the right places.

The more time you spend complaining, the less time you do writing, so that will be one up for everyone else who doesn't and takes the novel to workshop.

But as a kind of blunt honesty, if you want to make a fuss ala Anne Rice someday--I won't mind. Less competition is fine with me. In fact the sooner the better. ^.~

Though if you are going to be a jerk, I say do it in style: Harlan Ellison - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia is a great example.