kill your loved ones. (pet hates) - Writers Forum

Azmakna · 06-02-2007, 09:04 AM

i just thought it would be fun to have a general discussion on writing. sometimes in depth critique of a particular piece cannot give you the right advice, because the poster critiquing your work is concentrating on grammar, style, voice, pace... etc. but there are many habits that amateur writers get into that a quick word could eradicate. i consider myself one such amateur.

one of my pet dislikes is info dump. that is when a writer has invested so much time into creating their world that when it actually comes to writing the damn thing, they feel as though they should put every dot or dash in. what you should do is create the world for your own use, so that if it came to ANY situation you know what to do. that doesn't mean that everything should be put into the finished story. rather than giving us three or four paragraphs of endless description or back story, scatter that information throughout the early chapters or pages of the story... break it down into palatable sizes. if a swordsman is about to decapitate the main character, i don't give a damn if he has a tattoo of a snake on his arm or a scar on his face, i want to see what happens next. perhaps you could save that tattoo for some sultry goddess to trace with her finger as she seduces our main character.

murder your darlings! you know that sentence that doesn't fit into the story or have any real purpose, but you spilled blood to put it together, so you convince yourself that it is needed. KILL THE DAMN THING! you can use it at some other time in a more appropriate story.

anyway that should kick things off! i'm hoping that some of the more experienced writers will add to the subjects i have mentioned, or perhaps add some of their own pet hates. cheers!

Mike · 06-02-2007, 11:11 AM

I agree about info dumps. A writer can be so in love with her world that she'll want to show everyone exactly how it is as soon as she can. You usually spot these dumps early on, in the much unneeded 'prologues' beginning writers tend to write. As far as my tastes are concerned, as a writer and as a reader, I don't want to know everything about the imaginary world because there is no room for my own imagination. There should be enough details here and there to get us going. It's like this: you imagine you're going to...China...for example. No matter how many stories you've read, how many pictures you've seen, and what was on TV - it doesn't prepare you for your own experience. A writer shouldn't be taking your eyeballs out of your sockets and saying, "look at this! now look at this!" She should be giving us a picture and asking us what we see. You ever read a book when you're younger and then go back to it years later? Your perception is totally different because you catch different things. This is how it should be. You should catch different things each time you read something. That is what I aim for when I write, at least.

As for 'killing your darlings,' it's very true. You can craft a perfect sentence but if it doesn't belong, take it out. I've been working on a particular piece for over four years and it has gone through over twenty different evolutions. Each time, I deleted or changed months of work. There were some really good descriptions that just didn't fit anymore and so there they went. Oh, you can save them for later if you want - you can create some kind of 'phrase file' where when you become rich and famous you can dish out these quotes by the pound. However, my work isn't about writing the most beautiful sentence ever. It's about communicating with people and relaying important issues/morals. If a beautiful sentence comes along and serves that purpose, I'm happy too.

Currently, my dislikes of some stories I've been reading lately are character related and usually cross into the realm of the cliche. I don't like it when I read about a character who is quiet but clever, who has great 'fate' about her, who - oh if someone would only see her! - can do such marvelous things if she only got the chance. It's complete trash. It parallels the rags to riches outline - the insane notion that if you try hard enough you can succeed.

Why do so many people write prologues on here? Most of the time, prologues are simply not necessary. I scan the threads and see prologue after prologue and an occassional chapter one. Do not tiptoe into a story, people! It's as if you're trying to apologize for yourself.

I think that a lot of the times people offer grammar, style, voice critiques because those are the most evident things wrong with a story. A lot of the times a story would be better if we didn't have to trip over all the errors. Good writing begins with the basics. You can't discuss the important issues like the impact of oreos on western society without being able to write well. Once you have the grammar down, you work on voice and style because how you tell a story is as equally as important.

A lot of people here are obsessed with their plots. It's not a bad thing; it's good to be creative and want to tell adventurous stories. But a plot won't hold your story together. It's like going to see a movie to be amazed by the plot and environment but you want to cry at how bad the acting is. Good stories are well-rounded. You can't have fabulous characters - practically life-like - and have them walk here and go there while they really don't do anything at all. It's like watching someone shred cheese all day.

If you're planning out a trilogy or a nine-book set, please stop right now. You most likely haven't even written chapter two. You see, if you have planned out all these events, it's more likely than not that your readers will see these plot pivots from a mile away. Or they'll be really frustrated when you throw in a ninja just to give the story a twist. I believe that a person who only thinks about what it'll be like when she's published is someone who wants the glory and the 'fame' rather than someone who wants to write. Sure, you can think about that far ahead, but you mustn't dwell on it. You've got to start writing some time. Writing a complete novel is hard work, let alone publishing it, so don't be thinking about sequels and Book Nine when you've barely started Book One because it'll never happen.

Azmakna · 06-02-2007, 12:36 PM

totally with you on the posters who think in terms of trilogies. i mean, i get stressed and end up with a pile of nails by my lap-top, just thinking about the daunting task of finishing one draft of one book! then there's the rewrites. why put yourself under so much pressure... or is it perhaps a sort of subliminal bragging? are they saying that they are so sure their work will get published that they are already working on the million dollar follow ups! either way, it's a waste of good energy.

we've had the discussion about critique and grammar before and do you know what: I WAS WRONG! i suppose it's because i come from a background of writing classes with about a dozen individuals sat around a table. but i didn't bargain for the sheer number of offenders. i pick a story and start into it, not having read it first, and begin to critique. pretty soon i'm out of colours (green sucks for highlighting!) and i'm scrolling down thinking, christ i could be here all day. i still respect posters who try though, but it is a little bit frustrating when some of the most basic mistakes keep cropping up, like tense problems. one thing that drives me insane is the constant use of indefinites: almost, nearly, as if... be strong with your prose. make that god damn character do it now! here! in vivid text!

if you're a beginner, like me, don't put yourself under so much pressure, pick something short and sweet, work at it, making sure the tense is right and the puncuation is, more or less right, and post it. it's easier to evolve that way. why spend a year on a novel, only to be told that eveything is wrong with it? the task of correcting 200 pages will be so daunting that you will more than likely forget about ever becoming a writer. for those who like words too much, write poetry, this will help you hone your prose and obliterate redundant verbage.

take the shortest route possible to where you want to be and perhaps you will still be writing into your 40s

great post by the way Mike

Heather_18 · 06-02-2007, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azmakna

that doesn't mean that everything should be put into the finished story. rather than giving us three or four paragraphs of endless description or back story

THANK YOU!
I love description. All of my stories are very descriptive and visual, but I've been so thankful for great writing teachers in my past to teach me that it is TOTALLY OKAY to leave some things to the reader's imagination. Sometimes it's hard, but in the end, it makes the story a billion times better.

What I really dislike is simply when writers don't know the rules. My boyfriend keeps asking me why I stress and keep going to school when really, to be a writer, you don't need a degree. BUt I feel that if I want to bend and break the rules, I need to know them first. Ignorance in writing drives me crazy. If it's your passion...learn it.

Heather_18 · 06-02-2007, 01:27 PM

Okay...by the time I actually got to post that, another post had been made by Mike and I just feel the need to add that yes, everything he said was so dead on. Especially

Quote:

I think that a lot of the times people offer grammar, style, voice critiques because those are the most evident things wrong with a story. A lot of the times a story would be better if we didn't have to trip over all the errors. Good writing begins with the basics. You can't discuss the important issues like the impact of oreos on western society without being able to write well. Once you have the grammar down, you work on voice and style because how you tell a story is as equally as important.

.

WELL SAID!

Fossy · 06-29-2007, 10:49 AM

Thanks for pointing this out. I made the very same mistake. I had my main characters just meet, (thrown together in an accident), then living together very quickly - all part of the plot. Trouble is my heroine was hesitant about the moving in so quick bit, so she asked him heaps of questions and he offered heaps of info about his life - all in one narrative. How crap is that? Can't believe I actually thought I'd get away with it!

Mike C · 06-29-2007, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heather_18

What I really dislike is simply when writers don't know the rules. ...Ignorance in writing drives me crazy.

I don't know the rules. I'm pretty ignorant in many ways. I know what nouns and verbs are, and I know what adjectives and adverbs are, because I try to exclude them. But beyond that... prepositions, gerunds, I get lost. I don't care. I know how words go together, I don't have to name them.

Krim · 06-29-2007, 03:04 PM

Info dumps can of course be useful. There's a scene in my story where a character is assured that a servant will answer every question he asks truthfully. There's some infodumping on a "villian's" motives on keeping the main character, an answer to why the villian calls the main character a particular name, what source of energy runs the city (perpetual motion machines), the main export of the city, how some particular magical items work.

This would seem annoying as hell, right? But you have to take into account that everything in it has to be taken with a grain of salt. The villian can just be wanting to twist the main character's thoughts. Is the technology advanced to the point of perpetual motion machines? Is that really the export (the export has something to do with the story)? Is what the servant says about the villian true?

It's an interrogative tactic, really. Trying to gain trust. It's also giving away bits and pieces of the city's inner workings, character motivations, etc. Are you saying under no circumstance is this allowed? I'm not going to twist the realism of the story to adhere to the no infodump rule. You would be asking small bits of factual information developing the world, and then asking big questions once you judge how far the servant would delve, if it would pursue a train of thought or answer the question as concisely as possible.

It's what the main character and the villian would do.

There's also a puppet play in my story explaining the complete backstory of one of the villians (a different one than from before). Also annoying, right? But the villian knows the main characters are there and influenced the play, which was an annual affair since the story of the villian was a massively popular tale around there. Once more, the villian twisting the main characters around his finger. Once more, trying to get the heroes to empathize. There is also the fact I did this because both villians meet and fight each other at the end, even though they different sides of the same coin.

I DO agree that the writer should not make the characters pass some random ruin and then give some page-long infodump on it when it has nothing at all to do with the story.

Kyrie · 06-29-2007, 03:07 PM

I used to do a lot of the mistakes and errors people are commenting here, mainly because I was young and stupid, but fortunately some people slapped me until I couldn't feel my cheeks and taugh me how to 'really' write.

English is not my first language so it's particularly hard to try to express an idea I feel works perfectly in another language, it just doesn't translate the way I want to. But still, I think that's no escuse to go around spouting grammar mistakes like it's the world's end, and I hate it when I see other writers make, not only basic mistakes but consistent (I still make mistakes, mind you), I feel like "Why can't you write your own language correctly!".

It's already been said that info dumps are useless so I rest my case.

MiloDaePesdan · 06-29-2007, 05:27 PM

I'm still young and stupid. You learn a lot when you're both--if it doesn't kill you first.

On infodumps. I don't think they're completely useless. To partly add to what Krim said, maybe the amount of infodumps depends on the writer's style. If the author has a telling way more than a show-don't-tell fashion (and there are writers like that) infodumps can be interesting to read.

Though the only author I can think of atm who incorporates lots of that is David Weber. Oh, and C.J. Cherryh as well as Julia Czerna-something-something, can't remember her last name.

Thing is, David Weber--author of Mutineer's Moon--writes space-opera stories with big naval battles and all. Readers unfamiliar with military jargon or how a particular spacecraft functions in battle need the infodumps to understand. At times he tells more than he shows, but there's just something about it that interested me in reading his stories. (I'm still scratching my head about that.)

At least he doesn't goo infodumps all over the prologue like a one-year-old baby. He puts it where the reader needs it. And I think that's the key to getting away with infodumping.

Though how you can tell where and when a reader needs more background info is something else.

Milo

Krim · 06-29-2007, 05:40 PM

Yup. It's only realistic if your character hears about something interesting pertaining to his situation, he'll go around asking people. You just have to make the infodump as short as possible.

Azmakna · 06-29-2007, 06:36 PM

another pet hate of mine (it's only a phrase) is when people can't bring themselves to be definite. it's almost as if they are unsure of themselves. words like 'almost', 'nearly', 'as if' etc. cut those unnecessary words. 'beginning', 'began' also frustrate me. they may seem like small points but when you write without them, you would be amazed at the way it forces you to really think about the words that follow.

on a side note i was wondering why some people post 2 or 3 pages of a story. are you here for critique or praise?

Johnna · 06-29-2007, 07:06 PM

About David Weber: I love his fantasy. I'm reading his book "The War God's Own" and I just got through reading two or three full pages explaining the set-up and tactics of an army that had absolutely nothing to do with the story, and I loved it. As aforementioned, the style of the writer determines how boring his info is, and David Weber's style is amazing.

Anyway, a pet hate of mine is repeated, simple grammar mistakes, like confusing "there", "their", and "they're" or not using commas where they should be used. I can excuse spelling mistakes in first drafts; I type so fast sometimes that the words are almost unintelligible.

About "infodumping": It's frustrating to know you can't spend ten pages explaining a system of magic or describing a city. I had to restrain myself to two paragraphs about magic in the beginning of my book, and it practically killed me. I've just got all this information in my head that's bursting to be written, but doesn't fit anywhere in the story. But I do agree about long, boring, useless information. It's simply horrendous, and more often than not it's what causes me to put down a book for good.

Characters that aren't believable or interesting: I can't stand them. I hate it when, at the end of a story, a character hasn't changed or gained new insight as a result of the major events that have happened to him. Also characters that are perfect at everything, that have no flaws or faults: unbelievable.

I guess that's all I have to say for now.

MiloDaePesdan · 06-29-2007, 07:18 PM

Hi Johnna.

The first book is still the best. I mean, how can you not like an opening chapter about a berserker-type warrior saving a woman from being raped any further?

Bahzell banzaiii!

Um. That aside--on magic, best way is to cook up a situation where the magic helps bring about the solution to the problem rather than solving it by itself. Yeah, it's harder than it sounds.

But if I can do it you can do it too. (Forward momentum? *evil grin*)

Milo

Johnna · 06-29-2007, 07:40 PM

I admit it freely: I have a crush on Bahzell. Who wouldn't?

I might have trouble having magic bring about the solution rather than be the solution because, well, in my first novel at least, it's very, how shall I say it? Magic-centric. But not (hopefully) in a cliched way. I'll edit away any cliches as I find them, though.

Anyway, going off topic (been off topic). I shall stop now.