killned3

He woke up with a head the size of Gibraltar. Looked around and tried to figure out where the hell he was. This can't be happening, he thought. I was sitting in my car waiting for the light to change. How did I get here?

A man in a white coat appeared suddenly--from a door, or out of thin air, he couldn't tell.

"Okay, buddy. Let's get you ready to see the doc."

All right... in truth, this is technically incorrect writing. That bit is still a part of the narration, and a complete change from third person to first person. Now, if you had done this . . .

This couldn't be happening, he thought. He was sitting in his car, waiting for the light to change. How did he get here?

That clearly implies that those words are his exact thoughts. It's still a part of the narration, but technically correct, because you've kept it in the same point of view. This is the case in which italics aren't needed, but if you're going to be direct with thoughts--in first-person--you will need italics to clearly make the reader know it's not your narration.

Hope I've been of any help.

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Dawnstorm

It isn't incorrect; it's just another convention.

What you're doing is no longer direct thought, but it's also correct.

From the Chicago Manual of Style:



Here. It's only a search result quotation, as I don't have an account there. I can't verify that they're talking about direct thought (but other people around the web, who quote the Manual, seem to confirm this).

People ought to be more careful with words such as "incorrect".

LadyPenelope

I don't think there's any correct way to write anything...it a personal choice. Personally, I use third person narration to show thoughts...as in "Well, he might as well keep it. He pocketed the ring." I think, if you think about your character's 'voice' and mimick the way they speak in the dialogue in the narration, the fact it's their thoughts should be clear.
Have you read any Henry James? Not a modern example, but his novels are littered with this use of a character's voice in the narration. He shows it in the language and grammar used.

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killned3

You can go ahead and write that way if you'd like, Dawnstorm... but in the end, I'm willing to bet that any editor won't appreciate it. Also, does it say anything about a legal point of view change in the middle of the same paragraph? It wouldn't seem so to me. Read any published novel in the bookstore (not self-published, thank you) and try to see if you can find an example that supports what you're trying to prove. I wish you the best of luck.

I also believe that what you searched for was completely different from that which we were discussing. We're beyond quotes now. Quotes can very well baffle the reader into thinking someone else is talking, if the thoughts aren't made clear beforehand. Without quotes, a reader will mistake thought for narration, thus increasing the confusion factor, unless you describe his thoughts in the third person, and not directly. What we were discussing was the point of view change, and how it confuses the reader if used at all. Sticking to one point of view is confusion-free.

For direct thought, I still stand by italics, for they are the conventional means of displaying such. Almost every book I've ever read--and I've read many--uses italics for direct thought. For thought like the example I gave in I believe my last post before this one, they use just that same method.

Now, you can continue to use these confusing methods of conveying thought if you wish, as they may not be technically incorrect by means of written rule, but if you're an avid writer and plan on getting something published by using these methods, then I wish you the best of luck, because you will need it.

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LadyPenelope

I seriously doubt the way you've portrayed thought would really be the make or break about whether you'd get published or not. I can't see any publisher saying, "This is an amazing book; what a plot! Wait, he's used italics for thought...better throw this one out." What matters is writing something good and little nit-picky details like thought are down to personal taste of both the writer and the reader.

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Dawnstorm

Publishing houses will refer me to style guides, or they will have house styles. If I submit, I'll re-format to suit them. (Which might mean that I have different versions for different houses. Research, you know.)

And, to be honest, I'm arguing as a reader, not as a writer. (As a writer, I'm more comfortable with the method you outlined.)

If you want to get complicated, tell me. I'm game.

The short answer is, that depending on how you look on it, it's either:

a) not a PoV-change, but an unmarked quotation of direct thought, or
b) a PoV-change, but then it would still be a PoV change if you used italics (as it's just a orthographic convention). The "he thought", would normally be enough to tip any reader off.

I'll have to concede lack of evidence, right now, but I'm pretty sure I've seen it before, and not that rarely. I *did* a superficial search of Project Gutenberg and came up with nothing. I'm convinced it's just a matter of time before I'd find something, but I'm not asking you to take my word for it. I decided not to go on searching, since mammamai brought up the method this time round, and I suppose she'd find examples with more ease than I would. (In the same amount of time I looked for "thoughts in plain print", I found the two examples of "thoughts in quotation marks" I posted above, but that's because I knew where to look.)

And this is where we differ. The mere presence of "he thought" makes, to me, these three versions semantically (but not stylistically) equivalent: [Edit: Wait, no. The "mere presence" isn't enough; I'll have to rethink this one a bit.]

A: This can't be happening, he thought. I was sitting in my car waiting for the light to change. How did I get here?

B: This can't be happening, he thought. I was sitting in my car waiting for the light to change. How did I get here?

C: "This can't be happening," he thought. "I was sitting in my car waiting for the light to change. How did I get here?"

I've seen all three versions in print, and they're not exceptions either (like Joyce's "-- [text]" which he uses for both dialogue and thought in Portrait).

Italics dominate SFF, at least (probably Mystery, but I don't read much of that). My impression is that plain print and italics are about equally spread in mainstream fiction, when there is a direct quote of thought, although the method you mention outnumbers them both.

Quotation marks, I think, are almost extinct in mainstream fiction (actually, I was surprised how prevalent they were a century ago), but I think they're still used in fairy tales (and - possibly - children's books).

Distribution isn't hard to check if you have the time and resources; I don't.

And why not. Italics is a perfectly respectable method. May even be the preferred method (and probably is in genre fiction). I'm not going to talk you out of italics. That would be stupid.

Your preference for italics, though, doesn't invalidate other methods. If mammamaia wants to write thoughts (direct thought) unmarked, why not? There's precedent. (Evidence pending. Keep your eyes open, and you'll probably stumble on some. Happened to me when mammamaia last brought this up.)

I'm pretty much with LadyPenelope on this. You may not get a second look if the editor dislikes your particular usage (and the editor might well dislike italics), but that's about it. If they turn you down, it's not going to be for orthographic conventions. That's quite easy to change, anyway.

The PoV-confusion you mention is an interesting point, though, and worth bearing in mind. (But, for the record, I didn't find mammamaia's example especially confusing.)

killned3

The majority of what you just said sounded more like support than antagonism... so I'll stand by what I said and take what you said for how I comprehend it. I give you my best wishes. :]

Colt

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mammamaia

since this is 'creative fiction,' there's nothing 'incorrect' about it at all... yes, it's contained in a paragraph along with narrative, but it's not 'part of the narration'... it's his thoughts, as he thought them, continuing the inner dialog that was begun with the 'he thought' sentence, which puts the reader inside his head for a moment... it's not a change of pov...

this is what's called 'style' and 'legality' isn't even an issue, since there are no laws restricting how one can write... if i'd done what you suggested, then it would be continuing the narrative in a very boring, non-reader-engaging way... and that's not what i wanted to do... plus, what you wrote ["How did he get here?"] makes no sense...

i preferred to involve the readers emotionally, by putting them 'in the moment' and was showing how to write thoughts effectively and clearly, without resorting to italics...

you're entitled to your opinion, as to whether you like it or not, but nothing i wrote there was 'wrong' or 'incorrect'...

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killned3

You can use "creative writing" as an excuse, but even creative writing has its rules, Maïa. Anybody can write how they wish, sure... That's what makes writing such a thrill, but if you write like that . . . good luck.

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LadyPenelope

Are you published killned3? From what I've read around the site, Mammamaia has a lot of experience but more on the editing/mentoring side (correct me if I'm wrong mammamaia), so surely she knows what she's talking about. If you're published, then great, your style worked for you, but if not, I don't think you're really in a position to tell others they won't make it if they don't wrte the way you do.

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killned3

Personally, I don't really think anybody on this website is individually published, at least in the realm of novel writing, because if they were then they wouldn't be spending their writing time on a forum. All I'm really trying to do is help people write better so they can become published, as I generally know what I'm talking about (I'm not shamed to admit when I'm wrong when I am), and at the same time I'm working on that same goal for myself. So once again I'll just say that anybody can write however they'd like, as it is their choice, but good luck to them if they choose to write in a way that may perplex readers. I've said all that I need to, and I give everyone my best wishes.

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mammamaia

fyi, kn...
i've had a variety of stuff published [both fiction and non in paying venues]... ... and i ran a writing consultant business where i was paid up to $150/hr to write just about anything for clients, fix up their writing, and/or teach them how to write better... some even had multiple ph.d.'s and still came to me for writing help... so i guess you can say i DID have 'good luck'...

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killned3

Have you ever gotten any novels published?

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LadyPenelope

So does that mean you are or you aren't published?

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killned3

I'm not. When I said nobody, I was including myself. Were I published, then that entire quote would have been hypocrisy.

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