Inner thoughts - Page 2 - Writers Forum

mammamaia · 04-29-2007, 07:26 PM

king is not the epitome of the finest writing practices... and he's not a guru i'd advise any new writer to follow, unless they want to write the same kind of popular, but far from wonderfully-written dreck he does...

killned3 · 04-30-2007, 12:14 AM

I recommended him not because he's the greatest writer alive and the "epitome of finest writing practices", but because he utilizes italics in many clever and comfortable methods, delivering a very fine opportunity to explore a character's mind. King is praised most often for his extremely complex, believable characters, and this goes very well along with that. Robert Jordan also makes very good use of italics, and in much the same way. Fine writing is all over the place, maia . . . in that respect, Stephen's just another squirrel tryin' to get his nut, I will agree, though I do like his style and have yet to find any accidental errors in his mechanics.

mammamaia · 04-30-2007, 03:57 AM

glad to know we agree on something!

Dawnstorm · 04-30-2007, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mammamaia

a good writer does not have to resort to tricks such as italics, to let the reader know what the character is thinking... sprinking a story/novel with italics annoys many agents/publishers/readers... including moi-meme!

And a good reader will spot the rhetorics inherent in calling italics a "trick".

Really, ever since the computer age "italics for thought" are a convention, though you still see as many direct thoughts without italics, or even in quotation marks (but then usually with atribution.)

The convention is so well ingrained that you get absurdities like this:

Here

Quote:

Another detractor for me: Parrish used italics to set off words he wanted emphasized, usually in dialogue. Since the rule in writing is to only use italics for thought, I was distracted many, many times by the proliferation of italics in the text. It’s fine to break a rule, but I feel it was over-broken, if that makes any sense.

Nothing good comes from pretending rules exists that don't. Or from obsessing over typographical conventions. Most of the time, when "italics for thought" doesn't work, it's not the italics, anyway; it's the thoughts.

mammamaia · 04-30-2007, 06:35 PM

Quote:

still see as many direct thoughts without italics, or even in quotation marks (but then usually with atribution.)

thoughts, with or without attribution, can never properly go in " "... in re dialog, they're for the 'out loud' kind only...

Dawnstorm · 05-01-2007, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mammamaia

thoughts, with or without attribution, can never properly go in " "... in re dialog, they're for the 'out loud' kind only...

It's out there:

Katherine Mansfield, A Garden Party and Other Stories

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katherine Mansfield

While the water was heating, Ma Parker began sweeping the floor. "Yes," she thought, as the broom knocked, "what with one thing and another I've had my share. I've had a hard life."

Rudyard Kipling, Just So Stories

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rudyard Kipling

The Stranger-man (and he was a Tewara) thought, 'This is a very, very wonderful child. She waves her arms and she shouts at me, but I don't understand a word of what she says. But if I don't do what she wants, I greatly fear that that haughty Chief, Man-who-turns-his-back-on-callers, will be angry.'

I must admit I'm surprised about Mansfield; it's the Fairy Tale usage á la Kipling I thought of.

I'm pretty sure I've seen more recent examples, but these are harder to find (as they're not usually available for free, online). I personally don't use quotation marks for thoughts (but might for the occasional fairy tale). I wouldn't suggest doing it. But to say thought can never go inside quotation marks is flat out wrong.

mammamaia · 05-01-2007, 07:19 PM

i didn't say they can't... i said they 'can never properly'... and i meant that in re today's writing practices/mandates, not those of a century ago...

Dawnstorm · 05-02-2007, 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mammamaia

i didn't say they can't... i said they 'can never properly'... and i meant that in re today's writing practices/mandates, not those of a century ago...

Well, yes, they're not the most up-to-date examples, but I addressed that in above post. I can't really provide any modern evidence right now (mostly because I'm too lazy to go through my library), but I'm pretty sure modern examples exist. I may be right; I may be wrong. Such things are notoriously hard to prove.

If I wrote a fairy tale, I'd put thoughts into quotation mark, ignoring - at my own peril - your advise. (As both italics and plain text just look wrong to me.)

As it is, in all other contexts, I wouldn't advise using quotation marks, but if someone uses them, why not? They're called "quotation" marks, you can quote all kinds of things: speech, words, etc. So why not thought? If it's in the house rules of a publishing house, I'll comply and that is that.

But vague reference to "today's writing mandates" aren't exactly convincing me. It's just rhetoric rule-mongering á la Strunk & White.

Azmakna · 05-02-2007, 09:00 AM

respect where respect is due people. i too get upset when something is said that i don't necessarily agree with, but when a veteron of writing and an editor to boot, tells us that something is wrong, you have to sit up and take note. please an editor and publishers may well read your work!

Dawnstorm · 05-02-2007, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azmakna

respect where respect is due people. i too get upset when something is said that i don't necessarily agree with, but when a veteron of writing and an editor to boot, tells us that something is wrong, you have to sit up and take note. please an editor and publishers may well read your work!

First, not all editors agree with each other.

Second, this is a writing board, not a how-to-edit-for-publication board. For some people that may be the same; for me it isn't. I'd like to learn more about writing. Any idiot can follow rules (but an idiot won't know the difference between a good one, and a silly one he has to follow because of social dynamics that have nothing to do with writing).

Third, if writers simply accept what they're told, their writing won't improve. If they ignore what they're told, it won't improve either. A simple don't-do-that post will always raise my hackles. I'm like that.

Fourth, I do hope I haven't been disrespectful. If so, I apologise.

HarryG · 05-02-2007, 05:55 PM

I personally wouldn’t use italics or anything else for inner thoughts, but that’s just my personal style, and I know that many other writers do, and do it correctly.

I also happen to think that the writing of the last century was just as good as our present output, certain usage may have changed but I can recognise quality in my reading no matter when it was written.

Lastly, I baulk at political correctness and the strict adherence to over-strict writing rules (and false religious piety); they are not the tools of a writer, it’s the writers who don’t blindly follow the rules who write interesting books.

lakotadan · 05-09-2007, 09:32 PM

example: let's pick this apart. It deals with a little inner thoughts.

Trisha was watching TV. She jumped up and kicked the little kid laying in front of the chair and said, “Jimbo, do you think you could move so I can get up.”

I fell madly head over heels with her as her long coal black hair cascaded over her shoulders down her back and across her breast captured me.

Jimbo rolled over complaining, “Mommy, Bug kicked me.”

Steve’s words, “Trisha, is built like a shit brick house-,” vaporized .

“I saw her and she didn’t hurt you,” Mrs. King said both consoling Jimbo and reprimanding Trisha, “Trisha be nice, he’s just a baby. Jimbo is our baby boy he is four years old. I had him when I was thirty six,” she exuded pride on both points.

My eyes locked on Trisha’s breast pressing firming against the tight blouse and I said, “You don’t look like you are forty Mrs. King,” while standing there praying with every breath Trisha took, that the buttons would pop.

“Thank you Danny,” Mrs. King said. “I appreciate the complement.”

“It’s true.” I said as I bent over and gave Jimbo a little shove and took his little hand in mine. “Hi Jimbo, I’m Danny.” He jerked his hand away and hid his face.

Stephanie Causey came into my mind. “Va va voom!” Paradise. Yes, she and Trisha were the only high school girls I had seen that were so well endowed.

Maybe this isn't what you're discussing.

Maybe some one can post a correct example.

mammamaia · 05-09-2007, 10:07 PM

all the dialog there is obviously spoken, none of it seems to be thoughts...

the 'va va voom!' bit shouldn't be in " " if he's not saying it aloud...

here's something that shows inner dialog/thoughts:

Quote:

He woke up with a head the size of Gibraltar. Looked around and tried to figure out where the hell he was. This can't be happening, he thought. I was sitting in my car waiting for the light to change. How did I get here?

A man in a white coat appeared suddenly--from a door, or out of thin air, he couldn't tell.

"Okay, buddy. Let's get you ready to see the doc."

does that help?

hugs, maia

lakotadan · 05-10-2007, 08:13 AM

mammamia,
yep that helps
I hope everyone else appreciates it.

mammamaia · 05-10-2007, 08:28 PM

glad it did... and so do i!