Internal struggle? - Writers Forum

Fegaril · 03-17-2007, 10:33 PM

Most writers have heard the line, "Show, don't tell." There is even a thread about it right now. But even though I understand the perfectly simple concept and know that I'm mostly writing this way, I've put my characters into several situations where they begin questioning their own beliefs and motivations.

However, my problem is that I can't really see how this can be portrayed by 'showing'. Is this even possible? Or must this be 'told' (by, of course, making it interesting and intriguing, not just telling it in a single paragraph and writing: "He didn't know what to do, but in the end he chose to do it anyway.")

Hodge · 03-17-2007, 10:37 PM

You can show hesitation, conflicting thoughts, confusion, etc.

Kane · 03-17-2007, 11:04 PM

"show don't tell" is mostly bullshit.

Fegaril · 03-17-2007, 11:18 PM

Quote:

You can show hesitation, conflicting thoughts, confusion, etc.

Yeah, I usually do that, but showing too much of this can get repetitive, and even though I try to use different variations of doubt, hesitation and so forth, I don't believe that simply showing without also telling can achieve the effect seeing as how the reader wouldn't know why my main character would react this way.

Quote:

"show don't tell" is mostly bullshit.

Well, that's one way of putting it.

It just seems strange that so many writers would recommend it if it was such a faulty maxim. Maybe to get rid of the competition...

imrhati · 03-17-2007, 11:23 PM

You can show it through that characters actions. Depends entirely on the situation but a character who is having a internal conflict could become self destructive, or accidently hurt people he values.

Hodge · 03-17-2007, 11:26 PM

If you've developed your character enough, then we'll know why he/she is acting in a certain way, or we'll at least find it plausible.

And Kane just did an excellent job of showing his ignorance.

Kane · 03-17-2007, 11:40 PM

Well, that's one way of putting it.

It just seems strange that so many writers would recommend it if it was such a faulty maxim. Maybe to get rid of the competition...[/quote]

So many writers recommend it because that's what they were told, but it really is misused, misunderstood and normally wrong... Orson Scott Card has more to say on the subject, and I agree with him... lookin for the link.

Kane · 03-17-2007, 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hodge

If you've developed your character enough, then we'll know why he/she is acting in a certain way, or we'll at least find it plausible.

And Kane just did an excellent job of showing his ignorance.

As usual, Hodge is quick with a putdown. Fortunately for me, this one is as vacuous as most.

Here's what OSC has to say about the issue:

http://www.hatrack.com/cgi-bin/print...lesson13.shtml

Yeah, you could take Hodge's advice over Card's, but seeing as Card has written some of the best Sci-Fi ever, and Hodge is mostly limited to forum debates and petty insults, Card might be the wiser choice... for someone who wants to learn how to write, at any rate.

Hodge · 03-18-2007, 12:46 AM

Have you ever read Orson Scott Card? Plenty of showing. Not too much telling, except in his later books with a lot of the political stuff, which a LOT of people don't like (I'm torn, because I find the subject matter interesting enough in its own right).

Kane, telling leads to stories like this:

"Conan the Barbarian killed the librarian and thus conquered the nonfiction section."

No one wants to read crap like that. You make it good by showing how Conan killed the librarian, and before then you show the two characters' personalities so the reader can connect to them.

Kane · 03-18-2007, 01:17 AM

Hodge, of course I've read Card. I've read quite a bit of him, actually. All stories are told. Have you read that link? If not, read it. If you have, then tell me specifically what you disagree with. If you don't want to, that's fine. We've both stated our opinions. Let the guy decide for himself.

je33ie · 03-18-2007, 02:57 AM

(Aplogies for the little tiff between Kane and Hodge)... back to your question.

I think "show don't tell" is very important and a good rule for writers to stick to. 'Showing' isn't simply describing the actions of the characters, it is the decisions they make, the way they talk, the way they interact with others, and how they view themselves (either through discussions with others, or via personal thoughts for the reader only). "Show don't tell" is all about removing the descriptions of the characters and allowing the reader to form a view for themselves.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fegaril

But even though I understand the perfectly simple concept and know that I'm mostly writing this way, I've put my characters into several situations where they begin questioning their own beliefs and motivations.

However, my problem is that I can't really see how this can be portrayed by 'showing'. Is this even possible? Or must this be 'told' (by, of course, making it interesting and intriguing, not just telling it in a single paragraph and writing: "He didn't know what to do, but in the end he chose to do it anyway.")

If your characters are questioning their own beliefs then you need to show this through experiences the characters have that change their beliefs. In the example above, if Conan originally liked the librarian, you need to show how the librarian ate her sandwich loudly (maybe even with a flashback to Conan's high school days when the school bully used to also eat his sandwich loudly) and then she refused to extend the loan on his overdue books (and it was a book he really loved and only had a chapter to go), so he kills the librarian.

This helps the reader understand where the character is coming from, instead of just having to believe everything the author tells the reader .

Hodge · 03-18-2007, 03:08 AM

Kane, "telling" doesn't refer to storytelling. "Telling" refers to telling the reader what's going on in a story (or an academic paper, or a scientific study, or even a poem) as opposed to actually showing the reader. It's the difference between reading a timeline of events and experiencing the events unfold.

EDIT: Upon reading that link, I've lost more respect for Card. "Showing" includes a character's perceptions. There's a reason why it's not okay to tell the reader something through narrative but if you make a character speak it, then it IS okay.

Fegaril · 03-18-2007, 10:39 AM

Quote:

If your characters are questioning their own beliefs then you need to show this through experiences the characters have that change their beliefs. In the example above, if Conan originally liked the librarian, you need to show how the librarian ate her sandwich loudly (maybe even with a flashback to Conan's high school days when the school bully used to also eat his sandwich loudly) and then she refused to extend the loan on his overdue books (and it was a book he really loved and only had a chapter to go), so he kills the librarian.

Certainly, there must be a reason behind the motivations of the characters, otherwise the characters won't be very deep.

However, I'll try to use an example of a story I had a similar problem with (without going into too much details about it).

"So a guy, let's call him John D., discovers that his brother was killed in a violent, seemingly groundless assault. Seeing as how John D. took care of his brother when he was younger, he feels an inner obligation to find the brother's murderers, but this also means that he'll have to abandon his life in the city in order to go back to his hometown."

This is the first time my main character will need to consider his decisions. The question is whether he'll either have to leave everything behind or he'll overcome his feeling of obligation. How can you portray this without telling his inner feelings and thoughts? I mean, he has to find the pros and cons and find enough reason to choose one option over the other, so I can't see how this exactly can be shown. In my story, I had my main character sit down and just going through his mind to find what would be the best decision because I saw no alternative than to have him do some inner soul-searching.

I'll continue my previous example.

"John D. decides to abandon his current life to find the perpetrators and meanwhile he considers what to do with them when he finally finds them. With a history of being unable to control his anger, he knows he may have to kill them and prepares to commit disturbing acts of vengeance, yet after many days of rummaging he discovers that many of John D.'s old friends were behind the attack. Seeing as how he is still friends with some of them, he finds himself in a moral dilemma. He questions his decisions: Should he act differently because they are his friends or should he still choose to kill them?"

I know it's hard to cram in all details in such a small text, but I think I have the main problem here. In stead of showing any actions, I again chose to let my main character (who is a bit of an anti-hero, actually, and fully aware of it) sit down and scrutinize his choice, finding the pros and cons of each outcome of the choice.

Is there really any other alternative? I don't see how I can show the main character being in an inner dilemma except when the feelings inside overwhelm him and find expression outside him (like an outburst, hitting the table).

Kane · 03-18-2007, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hodge

Kane, "telling" doesn't refer to storytelling. "Telling" refers to telling the reader what's going on in a story (or an academic paper, or a scientific study, or even a poem) as opposed to actually showing the reader. It's the difference between reading a timeline of events and experiencing the events unfold.

EDIT: Upon reading that link, I've lost more respect for Card. "Showing" includes a character's perceptions. There's a reason why it's not okay to tell the reader something through narrative but if you make a character speak it, then it IS okay.

Unfortunately, you're deluded by what everyone else has told you about "show don't tell." I know what showing and telling is, Hodge. When I first came to this site, I was plagued by constantly trying to "Show" and not "Tell." It totally stifled my writing. Now I know better, and now I write better. Showing and telling work for specific areas, and telling works for far more than it's advised for. Some of the greatest books "tell" character motivation, rather than show it, even GRRM's Song of Ice and Fire. But, if you "lose" respect for Card, blow him off, and refuse to admit the truth of what he says, plus the truth of what so many good authors do, just to win an argument, I don't know what to say... except that your ego will be your undoing.

imrhati · 03-18-2007, 11:35 AM

Will I really enjoyed that link Kane. I noticed it is detailed as lesson 13, could you PM if there are 1-12 please.

I have to agree with Kane here. Sometimes showing can make a story boring. For instance if there is a relatively boring part between two important parts, you can jsut tell in one paragraph what happens bridging the gap between the important parts but not boring the reader.