Using Lyrics in Novels - Writers Forum

Aera · 02-02-2007, 05:50 PM

I'm currently working on a two-book concept involving a conspiracy and whatnot. There's a song that actually inspired the concept (don't ask me how, it has absolutely nothing to do with the plot), and also which ties in with a subplot in the book.

...So, is it okay legally to use song lyrics in a novel/s?

The song I'm thinking of is the Spanish version of "Don't Cry For Me, Argentina," which is from the musical Evita.

DabigJimdogg0 · 02-03-2007, 12:05 AM

No, probably not. You'll have to get consent from someone involved in the project if you really want to use it, which would be difficult. I just wouldn't use it to be on the safe side because the legal stuff gets messy and plus a song in a novel almost never really makes a huge mood change since the majority of people reading probably don't even know how the melody goes. So yeah, written consent, good luck.

torn · 02-03-2007, 09:37 AM

I have to admit if im reading a novel and there are song parts (such as in lord of the rings) i usually read about half of the song and then skip it through boredom. I dont find it enhances the story in any way.

Maybes if a character sparingly used lines from the song as dialogue it could be like a subtle homage to the song.

edropus · 02-03-2007, 10:32 AM

I read through
http://www.harmony-central.com/Bands/copyright.txt
which looks a little dated but from what I understood internationally you can be prosecuted for using any piece of musical work (the lyrics are copywritten as literature) no matter how small. Allowing smaller parts like one line of a song or one figure in a painting to get away with it is completely up to the court and usually it's teaching institutions and things that get away with it.

In general you're probably safe as long as you don't make any money off of it, and if it's big-time sellable the printing firm will take care of that, and, I doubt there's a big demand for 'Don't Cry For Me, Argentina' right now, so it'll probably be cheap.

But I'm far from an expert on this stuff.

cyberspecter · 02-03-2007, 12:28 PM

Hi,
If you use original lyrics you made up, such as Stephen King did in The Stand, where one of his protagonists was a rock star, then it's perfectly ok from a legal standpoint.
SK also began chapters in some of his other books with a lyric from an real song. There was always a credit listed for the writer of that song.
Example:
"I've seen fire and I've seen rain. I've seen lonely time when I could not find a friend..."
-James Taylor

My advice would be to go a head and use them giving proper credit. If your book or story gets published, your editor can help you with any legal mumbo jumbo.

Mike C · 02-03-2007, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyberspecter

My advice would be to go a head and use them giving proper credit. If your book or story gets published, your editor can help you with any legal mumbo jumbo.

Dumb advice, please ignore. Cyberspecter, if you don't have a clue what you're talking about, please don't pretend you do.

1. Any unauthorised use of lyrics is copyright infringement, is illegal and can see you in court. This does not apply to titles, which are not covered by copyright.

2. It's not the job of an agent, publisher or editor to get clearance for lyrics. It's yours. And last I heard, the going rate was about $500 per line. Therefore, in this context, you can quote "Don't cry for me Argentina" in your story, because it's a title, but follow it up with "The truth is I never left you" and you're $500 out of pocket.

3. If you submit a manuscript that quotes lyrics, unless you can show you've at least thought about getting permission to use them, most agents/publishers will reject on principle. It's too much hassle.

MarkG · 02-03-2007, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by torn

I have to admit if im reading a novel and there are song parts (such as in lord of the rings) i usually read about half of the song and then skip it through boredom. I dont find it enhances the story in any way.

Maybes if a character sparingly used lines from the song as dialogue it could be like a subtle homage to the song.

I kind of liked the songs in Lord of the Rings- just didnt care a whole lot for the rest of the book(s). And on top of that song lyrics is half of the cool of a Stephen King book. On top of that, and acually answering the posted question, someone will sue you for using anything that is not undeniably and explicity, totaly and incoruptibly, your own.

RainBeau · 02-03-2007, 06:05 PM

I don't know but...

If you're in the USA there is some leeway in what is called "fair use".

http://fairuse.stanford.edu/Copyrigh...er9/index.html

Though that site is rather on the techincal side you should be able to figgure out if your used is "fair".

Aera · 02-03-2007, 09:54 PM

Wow. Somehow, I think I can handle skipping the song part of the subplot. Sounds like a lot of hassle to get permission for using something like that. Thanks for the advice, everyone!

Mike C · 02-04-2007, 03:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainBeau

If you're in the USA there is some leeway in what is called "fair use".

Forget it. In the US and elsewhere music publishing companies protect their property. If you want to use lyrics, expect to pay. Fair use does not apply here.

Slugfly · 02-07-2007, 11:58 PM

If lyrics are legally counted as literature then wouldn't quoting and citing a line of lyric or even a few lines fall under the same 'quoting sources' thing that quoting Steven King would fall under?

Mike C · 02-08-2007, 01:30 AM

No. Try it. There is no wiggle room here - a publisher will not under any circumstancs publish you if you don't have the permission of the music publisher - and that costs.

Slugfly · 02-08-2007, 07:30 AM

I just checked the inside cover of the most recent novel I'd read, "American Gods" by Neil Gaimen. A summary:

"Every effort has been made to contact the copyright owners of material reproduced in this book. If an omission is brought to our attention it will be addressed in subsequent editions."

I guess that what that says is, yes we need to obtain permission for each little scrap. Gaimen quoted from both literature (Robert Frost) and music (Tom Waites) and a number of others as well, each chapter heading was a quote I believe. But the italicized parts above tell me that if something slips through or was included despite difficulties reaching certain parties perhaps, that there is some wiggle room after all.

T'would be safer to get permission of course... and if you're quoting a single line or a few lines then I'm sure that permission would be granted cheaply if not free. In fact, for a great number of musicians too I bet that permission for quoting would be granted cheaply if not freely.

Mike C · 02-08-2007, 08:45 AM

Trouble is, slug, that the musicians seldom have any say in the matter. If you want to quote lyrics, you deal with their music publisher, not with the muso.

[QUOTE = slug]and if you're quoting a single line or a few lines then I'm sure that permission would be granted cheaply if not free.[/quote]

Don't be sure. When I made reference to $500 per line I wasn't guessing. That's what it cost a friend of mine to have lyrics included in her book. She cut the original number down considerably! I also know one writer who was told by an agent that, good as the book was, there was no way they'd touch it unless she got the lyrics either removed or cleared. It's that much of an issue. I know a third who tried to get permission, found out the cost, and removed all the lyrics from her ms.

Quote titles, allude to lyrics or write your own. But don't quote anyone else's unless you can afford to pay for them.

torn · 02-08-2007, 09:59 AM

Quoting professionally managed lyrics is probablies something best left to the author who is professionally managed and will have the benefit of some suit doing the sorting out in this area.

Also curiously, as an artist yourself wouldn't you want to show off your lyrical abilites rather than those of others?