Using Lyrics in Novels - Page 2 - Writers Forum

Mike C · 02-09-2007, 01:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by torn

Also curiously, as an artist yourself wouldn't you want to show off your lyrical abilites rather than those of others?

You'd think. But it's easier to steal others than to think up your own.

Jolly McJollyson · 02-09-2007, 01:48 AM

Isn't "Don't Cry for Me, Argentina" in the public domain?

Xx Kane xX · 08-21-2007, 02:41 PM

I sent away a manuscript with song lyrics in it. (I acknowledged the original artist.) I know it's going to be rejected, but are they going to red flag me? I don't want my chances of ever getting published ruin because of this mistake.

Hobbes · 08-21-2007, 03:41 PM

As others have noted, why not make up your own lyrics? It really isn't that hard, and it's far more original.

Joe Moore · 08-21-2007, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jolly McJollyson

Isn't "Don't Cry for Me, Argentina" in the public domain?

No. “Don't Cry for Me, Argentina” is part of the musical EVITA written by Andrew Lloyd Webber and Tim Rice. They hold joint copyright on the work. The length of Federal copyright protection on joint work is 70 years after the last surviving author’s death. Use of the lyrics without the publisher's permission either for profit or otherwise is a violation of Federal law. Contact the music publisher and ask for permission to use their property. They will tell you if you can and how much it will cost.

DamionAlexander · 08-22-2007, 11:36 PM

Is a musician, the lead singer in a band for example, legally able to give you permission to use their lyrics, or do you have to go through their music publisher?

Mike C · 08-23-2007, 02:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DamionAlexander

Is a musician, the lead singer in a band for example, legally able to give you permission to use their lyrics, or do you have to go through their music publisher?

Depends on who has the publishing rights.

Layde Rae · 08-23-2007, 12:40 PM

Okay... so this post answers my questions about lyrics.... but... what about... lets say for example...one of my non human characters, living in a human world... loves to quote movie lines.... can I get away with that? Or once again.. do I have to have permission... I guess I can always screw up the movie lines.. so they aren't really right..lol

Let me know.. Im new to this.. Im learning.... GRIN

mammamaia · 08-23-2007, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Okay... so this post answers my questions about lyrics.... but... what about... lets say for example...one of my non human characters, living in a human world... loves to quote movie lines.... can I get away with that? Or once again.. do I have to have permission...

...depends on how long a quote it is... lots of folks have used, 'play it, sam' [casablanca] or 'tennis, anyone?' [bogart's famous entrance line in his first play] and 'tomorrow is another day' [scarlett's closer] with no problem... but if you go over a certain rather ill-defined limit, you need permission... to find out if what you have in mind is ok, you really have to ask a literary attorney, not other writers...

Quote:

I guess I can always screw up the movie lines.. so they aren't really right..lol

...yup!... there's no law agin' parody...

Kimberly Dawn · 08-30-2007, 09:55 AM

I thought that Mike C was wrong--and technically he is. It might be that certain publishing companies are not willing to contend or ask permission for lyrics--not all artists ask for kick backs. It does cause a lot of trouble.

Since the *lyrics* are an act of the writer and the Berne convention puts them under the domain of whoever wrote them on paper first, I would think that the writer--even if using a recording studio of someone else would retain the rights. Shakespeare, for example had many of his works performed in the Globe Theater, but no one would say that the Globe theater must retain rights. I would say ask the artist and the artist will know the current state of the copyright and whether it belongs to them. It doesn't hurt to ask.

Thus the rules are pretty much the same after 70 years of the death of the author, then it becomes public domain.

As for Fair Use. I looked it up.

LibraryLaw Blog: Lyrics and digital reference

According to that in a lot of legalese, after 10 seconds or 10% of the work is not fair use. Less than 10 seconds or less than 10% is fair use (Whichever comes first). This seems consistent with the government website--however in good policy one should ask anyhow. And since it's a legal website... I would give them a little more credit. (especially since it matches the government's)

I thought it was fishy because I'd read Miss Snark who addressed a similar question. (I really think people here would benefit from reading her) and she said that it makes it hard on agents and publishers--all that extra work and trouble. So it's better to go about and ask yourself, however if the artist wants a cut of the end work, that most publishers will not like it and turn you down. Publishing doesn't really make all that much--everyone in publishing is underpaid. This is why it's better not to include lyrics--you don't know the policy of the writer of those lyrics, where the rights stand and so on.

"It's the journey I like" is a lyric by J, a music artist, by posting this I won't get sued because it's 1, used for a short example. 2. It's less than 10% and 10 seconds of the song. If I put it into a book, same thing. But in good conscience I should ask Jae Jung if I can use the lyric--if the copyright isn't retained by her (Look up Weird Al and Beautiful--Weird Al asks both parties just out of courtesy... even though he doesn't have to.) she'll tell me. (Though I admit I'd have to wrangle with Korean sites a bit.)

valeca · 08-30-2007, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Since the *lyrics* are an act of the writer and the Berne convention puts them under the domain of whoever wrote them on paper first, I would think that the writer--even if using a recording studio of someone else would retain the rights.

They may, but while the copyright of lyrics might be held by the songwriter or composer or whomever created them (which may or may not be more than one person), it is often exclusively licensed to, or administered by, a music publisher. That's where you run into problems with just asking permission from the writer to print their lyrics. They may not be able to give that permission even if they want to.

Mike C · 08-31-2007, 01:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kimberly Dawn

I thought that Mike C was wrong--and technically he is. It might be that certain publishing companies are not willing to contend or ask permission for lyrics--not all artists ask for kick backs.

Kimberly, your post is 90% meaningless waffle. This seldom has anything to do with the artists; they generally don't own publication rights (remember when Michael Jackson outbid McCartney to the publishing rights to the Beatles back-catalogue?). Music publishing companies exist solely to generate revenue on their product. One way is to license the use of lyrics to writers.

Athlynne · 09-14-2007, 02:38 AM

I'm new here, so this may sound a tad naive...but isn't there a single, simple answer to the question of what you can use and how much?

All this is very strange to me. I would be honored if someone quoted me in their work, provided they gave me acknowledgement. And even this isn't possible? I just finished my first novel, and I don't think I'd have the heart to pull every quote out of it.

Mike C · 09-14-2007, 05:05 AM

Hi Athlynne

The single, simple answer is that you cannot use other people's lyrics in your own work without permission. You can use titles, you can allude to lyrics and songs, but you cannot use lyrics. If you want them, you have to get permission and pay for the privilege.

Athlynne · 09-15-2007, 02:29 PM

Thank you, Mike. What about poems, is it the same? Is it true that if the author has been dead seventy years, you can quote that person's work?