Mass Surveillance - Writers Forum

S1E9A8N5 · 11-22-2006, 10:56 PM

I just wanted your opinion because I'm drawing a blank. I'm writing a story of a world in mass surveillance. It takes place in the 2020s where technology has obviously improved greatly. My question is; how do you get away with things when your constantly being watched? At least most of the time.

she_libertine · 11-22-2006, 11:50 PM

Read Orwell's 1984. If big brother is happening on a large scale, getting away with even an anti gov thought would prove difficult. Possibly have your character's develope a rebellion of sorts, or devices that counter those of the the people watching them?

What it comes down to is how much your society is being watched. Just at work? at home? Are there spies of some sort and does the spying go beyond technological devices for example psychics?

Just some thoughts to ponder.

Cynic · 11-23-2006, 12:52 AM

Firstly, I'd watch out for assuming that technology will have improved "greatly" by 2020. But without details, natually I have no idea (and am not able to see the future myself at any rate). Still, I think we're coming into an age where the efficacy of that technology is going to be greatly improved by sophisticated real-time analysis of the data pouring in.

The internet was, getting past its original purpose, a response to the glut of information out there that no one could access. Now we have a glut of information that can be accessed and no clear way of making it useful. The next step is obvious.

Because no mere human could possibly track all of that, it's up to the machines. To defeat it, your protagonist would need to either have to understand what patterns the machines cue on and fake it out, or have machines to counter those machines (which is getting a little trite, but there's always a way to make things fresh).

You could consider breaking actions down into components and having the protagonist (or villian) accomplish them by multiple proxies so that no one could guess at it. Then of course there're robots. I expect by 2020 the home assistant types will be at least somewhat common, at least.

Then there's psychic ability to control machines, but that's already over-done, IMO.

It's a good question, really. It wouldn't be easy -- and that would be the point of the tech.

Mike C · 11-23-2006, 01:30 AM

Come to the UK, we're already in the world of mass surveillance. We have more CCTV than anywhere else on earth. Our govt has the largest DNA database on earth. They're trialling roadside fingerprint readers at the moment. Big Brother is here.

I think the only way to get away with stuff is identity theft. Don't try to get away with it, just leave a trailof evidence that leads to someone else.

By 2020 our Big Brother totalitarian government hopes to have hi def cctv.

HarryG · 11-23-2006, 04:41 AM

George Orwell just about got it right all those years ago. Nowadays, in London, every single person living or working there will be caught on camera at least 300 times a day.

It’s going to get worse. A complicated Google search, I tried it once, can bring the private details of home security webcams to your desktop, from all over the world, with a few clicks, unless they have stringent security checks in place, and most people don’t.

The live satellite images are also freely available with the technical know how and equipment. I live on the Spanish Costas and my favourite coffee stop on the promenade has a web cam, trained constantly on their customers (and the sea and boats beyond).

As to what we can do about it? Unless we use extreme measures, live like hermits in the middle of nowhere, smash up our computers, get a face-left every year, change our identities every few months; nothing. It’s frightening.

S1E9A8N5 · 11-23-2006, 06:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike C

Come to the UK, we're already in the world of mass surveillance. We have more CCTV than anywhere else on earth. Our govt has the largest DNA database on earth. They're trialling roadside fingerprint readers at the moment. Big Brother is here.

I think the only way to get away with stuff is identity theft. Don't try to get away with it, just leave a trailof evidence that leads to someone else.

By 2020 our Big Brother totalitarian government hopes to have hi def cctv.

How do you feel about that Mike C? I think its crazy. Not just for the UK, but for the future.

Ive only read the first chapter or so of George Orwells 1984. It's online but for some reason it's hard to read books online. I'm going to go to the library or buy it. Not sure yet. But I'm guessing thats the book that will give me an idea of how to write my story.

Quote:

Firstly, I'd watch out for assuming that technology will have improved "greatly" by 2020.

I've done my research for certain technology. I've read a few Popular Science magazines, watched a few programs, online stuff so I have an idea. Technology that is already taken place now but will improve a lot in 10-20 years. I'm thinking of 2027. A lot can change in 25 years. I'm trying to keep it as realistic as possible. Nothing to over done and over used.

Thanks for the tips.

Quote:

As to what we can do about it? Unless we use extreme measures, live like hermits in the middle of nowhere, smash up our computers, get a face-left every year, change our identities every few months; nothing. It’s frightening.

I agree. It's pretty scary but I think I would be one of those people that if it came down to it, I would be one of those who rebell. But like THEY say, you shouldnt worry about it if you have nothing to hide...

Mike C · 11-23-2006, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S1E9A8N5

How do you feel about that Mike C? I think its crazy. Not just for the UK, but for the future.

I hate it. It scares me. It's the mark of a totalitarian regime, this drive to observe and gather information about it's citizens.

The next stage, it the govt has it's way, is identity cards. Complex ones, with smart cards. The ideal, in the govt's pov, is to make life easier for everyone by having one card that combines your credit cards, ID card, medical records, passport, criminal record, all on one card. Of course, the argument is, innocent people have nothing to worry about...

Maybe not... yet. But what if, once we all have those cards with all that information, the govt takes a lurch to the left or the right. Imagine if Stalin or Hitler had had access to such a database.

The sad thing is that none of these measures are having the slightest imact on the level of crime. There are cameras that will record my speed while driving, either at a single point or averaged over a distance. Or monitor where and how I park in some cities. Or where and when I enter London (other cities to follow) and when I leave. There are moves to fit all cars with GPS tracking. Lots of cameras, lots of data storage... not many policemen. If I get attacked on the street at night I can expect to wait an hour or more for police to arrive. A burglary? 2 or 3 days.

Even more scary is the lack of security. The new biometric passports we're expected to carry? One of our newspapers set a hacker on one a few days back - it took just 4 hours to break in and record all the data, and it wouldn't take much longer to forge another.

Orwell got it wrong. He didn't go anywhere near far enough.

S1E9A8N5 · 11-23-2006, 09:14 AM

Yea...

I read all about the ID cards. And how cars will be able to not turn on if it detects alcohol and certain behavior... Cameras everywhere, putting security posts on corners to watch for crime, blimps in the sky that have technology to see through walls if they want. Innocent people being hassled and tasered for not showing an ID or some other ridiculous “threat”. Iris, fingerprint, chip implants, facial recognition scans... all to keep us safe from the "terrorists". I definitely didn’t think I would be living in that kind of world but by the looks of it, it’s already started and it’s just the beginning. The real terrorists are the government. And they wonder why people protest and make home made bombs and riot in the streets. How else are they going to listen to us when they don’t report this crap on T.V. and or suppress the truth and make us look like a crazy "few" when in reality, those few people are a few million plus. Definately crazy.

Mike C · 11-23-2006, 09:48 AM

Sad thing is that too many people are willing to be sold the crock, and will continue to exchange personal freedom for a perceived increase in safety.

It shouldn't be that way - it needn't be that way. I'd rather suffer a slightly higher risk of being blown up (after all, in the UK we lived with the threat of bombs from the IRA for many years) and maintain my freedom.

bob rulz · 11-23-2006, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S1E9A8N5

Yea...

I read all about the ID cards. And how cars will be able to not turn on if it detects alcohol and certain behavior... Cameras everywhere, putting security posts on corners to watch for crime, blimps in the sky that have technology to see through walls if they want. Innocent people being hassled and tasered for not showing an ID or some other ridiculous “threat”. Iris, fingerprint, chip implants, facial recognition scans... all to keep us safe from the "terrorists". I definitely didn’t think I would be living in that kind of world but by the looks of it, it’s already started and it’s just the beginning. The real terrorists are the government. And they wonder why people protest and make home made bombs and riot in the streets. How else are they going to listen to us when they don’t report this crap on T.V. and or suppress the truth and make us look like a crazy "few" when in reality, those few people are a few million plus. Definately crazy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by s1E9A8N5

And how cars will be able to not turn on if it detects alcohol

Hey, that actually sounds like a great idea! What's wrong with trying to stop drunk driving?

Otherwise, all the other stuff sounds like bullshit. But please, let's not turn this into a political debate. There's a debate forum on here for a reason.

Mike C · 11-23-2006, 11:23 AM

It's hard to discuss the ramifications of technology in a political novel without discussing politics, Bob.

And it's all a question of degree - a car that stops you driving if you're drunk is fine. A car that stops you driving, sends a report to the police, automatically takes your fingerprints and issues an arrest warrant is not.

Mike C · 11-23-2006, 11:48 AM

Going back to the original question, you'd have to think about how people behaved as well. I heard an interview with a guy who used to live in communist Russia who was considered an intellectual and a threat to security because he was a writer.

He and his friends knew they were being watched, and so never spoke openly about anything contentious in public, and habitually put a hand over their mouths while talking to each other in public to avoid being lip-read. He still found, after the fall of communism when he was able to access the KGB file on him, a terrifying dossier including everything about him, right down to which Jazz musicians he liked.

S1E9A8N5 · 11-23-2006, 11:55 AM

Yea. I would have never thought of the whole covering the mouth thing. At least not so soon. Thats a good idea. Thanks for that.

CZ · 11-23-2006, 11:56 AM

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." -Benjamin Franklin

On one hand, CCTV provides law enforcement with pictures/evidence of crime... on the other, I'm not necessarily sure if law enforcement acts on all that evidence.

What Mike C is saying is really not "bullshit." Having come from the suburbs of San Francisco to London, I see CCTV cameras everywhere I go. When driving, there are speed cameras everywhere to record the model/make of your car and the license plate.

One thing that Mike did not touch upon was the fact that Oyster cards are now increasingly being used by the police to record a person's movement and travel habits. Oyster cards are travel cards used for the Tube or busses. The draw-in for these cards is that they are much cheaper than buying paper tickets... the drawback is that anybody can trace where you've been. And they do. I was stopped in Kings Cross the other day for my oyster card to be scanned - it was a random check and they were doing it to many others.

I heard of the possibility of unmanned drones to check for youth violence in the streets here as well.

So no, it's not "bullshit" because it's happening here, and as an American ex-pat I can really see the difference between suburbian California life and life in CCTV London. "Big Brother" is very much in evidence here. I'm not worried about it so much as I am angry... since *I* am the one being tracked with my Oyster card, and it is *my* face being recorded on CCTV, why do assaults still occur in Tube stations? Why is crime still robust? Seems to me that the average joe gets screwed twice.

daisydaisy · 11-23-2006, 01:11 PM

Just touching on the CCTV thing in the UK, did anyone else read the article sometime at the beginning of this year about the trials of CCTV that can actually talk to you??! Well, not the machine itself, obviously, but the guy watching you through the camera. Quite scary, I reckon.