Viewpoint - Page 3 - Writers Forum

Mike C · 10-20-2006, 10:35 AM

JG Ballard has been described as the Greatest living english writer. He writes extensively in first person, to great effect. If you haven't found first person to be 'realistic' or 'descriptive', try reading some of his work.

Also try Ian McEwan, Alan Bennett, Ian Banks, Martin Amis...

You've maybe just been reading the wrong stuff.

mammamaia · 10-20-2006, 11:04 AM

there are exceptions to just about any rule, mike... in this case, the extremely rare exception [such as the one you cite] proves the point that hardly anyone can write really well in first person...

getting back to the screenplay thing... only amateurs/newbies and a few of those pros who cling to the outmoded old stuff use the 'we see' bit in their scripts... the pros can get away with it, if they have a good track record...

unknown newbies with spec scripts would be foolish to do so, as it shows them to not be up on the most acceptable current screenwriting style...

and all other action/description IS written in third person... in that, it's no different from narrative prose in omiscient third, as it describes what everyone looks like and does...

describing the scene [in third], "Larry sits by the window" is not "You sit by the window," which is addressing the reader or ordering him/her to do so, as it would have to be, if it were to be written in second...

but, as i said, if things are different in australia, then they're different... however, if you want to write for hollywood producers, you'd better learn the correct format and style...

Mike C · 10-20-2006, 11:13 AM

Ah, your post crossed with my edit. I just suggested a bunch more. maybe it's just the 'literary' writers that can pull it off.

You can add Haruki Murakami and Banana Yoshimoto to that list also. And Dostoevski, Faulkener, Camus, Twain, Wolfe...

First person isn't easy to get right, but all the above have pulled it off spectacularly. And many more besides.

KyleColorado · 10-21-2006, 01:03 AM

I don't see why First-Person should be so difficult to write in, so I'm not sure if I agree with mammamia when she says "hardly anyone can write really well in first person."

We speak in first-person every day, we write in first-person when we email, or respond in forums.. Humans are first-person narrators by nature, and the with amount of practice we've had, we should be veritable masters at it.

Peter Thomas · 10-21-2006, 06:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KyleColorado

[with the]amount of practice we've had, we should be veritable masters at it.

We probably should be, but we're not, I don't think. A collection of emails would be about as exciting as a cookbook without measurements, and I'd guess that at least 60% of what we say in a day isn't really that interesting or gripping. I think the only thing that keeps us interested is the fact that it is - to the best of our knowledge at least - true and accurate. Once you cross the boundary into fiction, it loses credibility, and often makes it hard for the reader to relate. A man (with exceptions, of course) can't write well from a woman's perspective, and if he sticks with writing a 'man's novel', then women will find it hard to read and identify. 1st Person requires loads and loads of invested time and energy into P.O.V, which is where I think most stories fall flat. They are simply 3rd person stories told in 1st person, which is not engaging at all. 1st person requires hugely varied grammatical structures, and needs a reason why it simply wouldn't work in 3rd. An excellent example is a book I read in 1st person from the viewpoint of an autistic person. It was a tough read as it was, but would've lost any depth it had in 3rd person.

My stance is that 1st person shouldn't be used as a device to 'draw people in'. It should be used plainly and simply because it wouldn't work any other way, and it's the only option to give your story integrity.

If it could work in 3rd, then use 3rd.

(This post may contain personal opinions!)

mammamaia · 10-21-2006, 10:05 AM

well put, peter!... echoes my opinions in toto...

hugs, m

Dr Strangelove · 10-21-2006, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KyleColorado

I don't see why First-Person should be so difficult to write in

The truth is, it isn't. It's no more difficult than writing in third, it's simply another option.

Have you ever written a piece in 3rd person that you didn't feel had enough suspense? Re-write it in 1st person from your protaganists POV and watch it come alive. It's a whole new dimension.

cbrmale · 10-21-2006, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

The truth is, it isn't. It's no more difficult than writing in third, it's simply another option.

Have you ever written a piece in 3rd person that you didn't feel had enough suspense? Re-write it in 1st person from your protaganists POV and watch it come alive. It's a whole new dimension.

Most fiction is written third-person limited, which means the point of view is limited to one narrator per scene or chapter, but the narrators can change during the work.

When it comes to writing pure suspense, third person gives the writer many more options than 'I saw this' and 'I felt that'. The greatest tool is to momentarily pull back to an omniscient view for a paragraph and use this broad view to describe the little things that raise the stakes, suspense-wise. It has to be done with subtlety so the reader doesn't notice.

Beyond this trick, third person limited as as intimate as first person, but it generally 'reads' better. Possibly because the majority of great literature has been written third person, and as readers we are naturally attuned to it.

Dawnstorm · 10-27-2006, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cbrmale

Most fiction is written third-person limited, which means the point of view is limited to one narrator per scene or chapter, but the narrators can change during the work.

While it's true that narrators can change, I think you mean to say that view-point characters can change. The narrator usually stays the same, although it's quite possible to have two (or more) 3rd person narrators relating the same story through the same point of view character, although that would be really hard to pull off.

***

"We see a car come up the driveway," is still (usually) third person narration, unless the "we" refers to characters in the story (and is not in dialogue). Third person omniscient narrators often refer to themselves in the first person, but since they're not characters in the story it's still 3rd person narration. (Take a look at George Eliot, for example.)

***

Quote:

Originally Posted by cbrmale

When it comes to writing pure suspense, third person gives the writer many more options than 'I saw this' and 'I felt that'. The greatest tool is to momentarily pull back to an omniscient view for a paragraph and use this broad view to describe the little things that raise the stakes, suspense-wise. It has to be done with subtlety so the reader doesn't notice.

On the other hand you could use the subtlety to use the uncertainty and limitations of first person (or very tight third limited, for that matter) to enhance suspense.

And it's no coincidence that many mystery stories are written in first person from the detectives point of view.

Know the advantages and disadvantages of your narrative techniques, and you should do alright whatever you choose.

***

There seem to be surprisingly many people who dislike first person narration. (Do you folks also dislike it when third person narrators comment on their stories?) I don't feel that first person stories by new writers are any worse than third person stories. It's probably that people who dislike first person narration are less forgiving for the flaws. And since more people seem to dislike first than third (at least currently), third person narration seems to have more general appeal.

My favourite authors tend to use all kinds of narrators. (3rd and 1st person distinction is pretty superficial, anyway.)

Fixed · 10-27-2006, 02:12 PM

If it is written well, it shall be pulled off
Obviously you've got to write differently in the 3rd and 1st person
Personally I prefer 3rd person but in the first person perspective things come a live and what the character thinks about can be more easily shown
In fantasy 3rd person is more favorable because it is better for describing environment and things which the character you follow might not know
whilst suspense and crime can follow the first person because of the thoughts inside the detective's mind etc

Vee · 10-27-2006, 08:33 PM

I mix and match as well.

Solace · 10-27-2006, 09:36 PM

I read basically anything... but most of my stories are in third person. Whenever I try to write in first, the work tends to turn out like, "I walked to the door. I turned the doorknob. I walked into the hall." Static. Awful. Sometimes it works for me, though, but third (limited) is definitely my preference in writing. For me, I'll read anything, so long as I like the story and other non-POV elements of the story.

wis3on3 · 10-28-2006, 05:03 AM

neither is better.
1st is good at times, but 2nd and 3rd are just as good. 2nd can be good in stories that you choose between two options at the bottom of each page.
personally, i prefer to write in 1st, i dont know why. oh well...

Oblivion · 10-28-2006, 05:39 AM

Is it possible to "get away" with alternating between 1st and 3rd person views? I've really no clue about this.

I've a tendency to write in third person, however, after reading some of Chuck Palahniuk's books, I've become a fan of using 1st person when I need to describe a character's thoughts or emotions. (I know, I know...but he does 1st person so damn well!) The whole "omniscient" part of 3rd person doesn't feel right when what I'm trying to convey to a reader is that character's feelings.

I know switching between 1st and 3rd person gets sloppy with multiple characters, I'm really only trying to alternate between 1st and 3rd person with my main character. So...any advice?

EDIT:

Jeez, so I just realized how I sound...I'll try to be a bit more specific...

Is it ok to alternate between 1st and 3rd person views at key points in a storyline, in order to convey more "emotion"?

mammamaia · 10-29-2006, 12:24 PM

anything is 'ok' if you can write well enough to make it work... and nothing is, if you can't...