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Old 09-25-2006, 12:12 PM   #16
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most guys would go with the attrctive woman and cross thier figners the other didn't find out
I'm sorry Imrhati, but I can't agree with this. MOST middle-age guys who have just had a break-up and want to get back together won't be looking to hook up with someone new. Instead, they'll pine away for a while, and cautiously "get back in the saddle". Certainly it's variable from person to person, but IMHO a period of morning for teh relationship would be the more natural.

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DON'T EVEN SAY IT'S JUST A PIECE OF PAPER
Policeartist, sometimes a couple doesn't get a marriage certificate exactly BECAUSE it's more than a "piece of paper". I'm getting off track a bit (as I don't feel this describes the characters presented to us), but here are examples:

If my wife and I legally combine our lives (and incomes), she loses her health benefits.

Many, many US elderly couples have foregone the "piece of paper" because one or the other would lose the social security (government pension for those across the pond) survivor benefits they receive.

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So she leaves him - and he falls apart, because she meant everything to him. She, on the other hand, goes from strength to strength and finally discovers who she is.
Aspiring, While I would personally like that ending better, there is a more tragic ending possible too - that she didn't learn how to live on her own and can't adjust, while he has the job, bank account and learns to adjust to bachelor life.

Another take on it can be found in "Mrs Doubtfire", where the male MC starts out as an inattentive (though not abusive) partner and grows as a person. He learns to be a good father and a freind of his ex, though they end up leading seperate lives when all is said and done.

-Frank

ps: If anything, I hope this spirited discussion is helping the original poster flesh out the characters.
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Old 09-25-2006, 12:51 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Policeartist
PS: one final clue from the writer about the man in question. After twenty years of living together, he still thinks of her as his "girlfriend."
Actually, if you look closely, we don't know what title the man in question gives her. The word 'girlfriend' was just used by the OP to describe the situation and ask the question--which says to me the term stems from the experience of the author (a teenage girl), and has little, if anything, to do with the MC.


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Originally Posted by theflowerofcarnage
My work is commonly written in the perspective of a teenage girl...

...My question is, is it normal for him to illustrate neediness and be sceptical about moving on when he's insanely in love with his girlfriend?
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Old 09-25-2006, 02:12 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by FrankBlissett
Aspiring, While I would personally like that ending better, there is a more tragic ending possible too - that she didn't learn how to live on her own and can't adjust, while he has the job, bank account and learns to adjust to bachelor life.
True, very true. I just like a hopeful ending...!

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ps: If anything, I hope this spirited discussion is helping the original poster flesh out the characters.
at 'spirited discussion'!
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Old 09-25-2006, 04:51 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by theflowerofcarnage
My work is commonly written in the perspective of a teenage girl, but I strongly believe that it is something that's overdone. I also have a habit of making the character's mentality too similar to my own and the story becomes very personal. Because of this, I'm now more interested in steering towards attempting to crawl into the mentality of someone who's older or who's not a girl. .
Hello, Flower,
You've now read the kind of tension and some of the problems that could occur with your story line. The reader will bring to the story their own background, experience, knowledge, beliefs and morals. It would be very difficult for a young person to cover the full range of emotions that such a situation would bring. Not impossible, but difficult. I, personally, would gently suggest you stay with what you know, but bring a new fresh voice and new twist to it. You might purchase the book "Writing the Breakout Novel Workbook" by Donald Maass. It has exercises in it to find a new way of looking at your subject/character/story.
Blessings.
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Old 09-25-2006, 05:05 PM   #20
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Old 09-26-2006, 03:13 PM   #21
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Thanks to everyone who replied. Your responses were extremely helpful (and insightful).

However, I do realize that I should have elaborated more on the characters' situations rather than leaving it as brief as I did (as I see some of you were questioning the characters’ lives prior to the woman’s decision to suddenly leave), in order to give you some insight on them. So, here's my attempt at being relatively more informative.

Maddie doesn’t run off with her boyfriend without thoroughly speculating how to deal with her pregnancy. She fears her parents will be ashamed of her behavior and heatedly kick her out of the house. Instead of confronting them about it, she pleads with her boyfriend to run away with her so they can start a family on their own. He knows he’s equally culpable for her pregnancy as she is (and being sixteen, he’s fairly naïve), so he believes that if he declines, he’ll be abandoning her. Reluctantly he agrees, and they leave without any notification of their whereabouts. Maddie gets a job as a waitress while Anthony works as cleaner at a hospital. After several years, Maddie decides to quit in order to raise her children appropriately (she has two more) and Anthony is hired as a construction worker. For a long period of time, Maddie is unemployed and at home. She has never been responsible, nor has she ever shown any hint of determination or intention of being successful. This, perceptibly, leaves Anthony responsible for financial security, but he is only able to make enough to cover basic necessities.

He and Maddie begin relentlessly arguing; she accuses him of being deadpan, very detached from his family, and he defensively tells her the liability lies on his shoulders, as he’s the one making money while she stays at home and does nothing. Even so, he never considers committing an act of infidelity, nor does he want to leave Maddie. He intends to work hard and make money to support their family, even if she chooses to do nothing about it.

Maddie’s desire for matrimony isn’t particularly unexpected, however. When she’s pregnant with her first child, she asks Anthony if he would ever reflect on marriage. He doesn’t believe that impregnating his girlfriend is a justifiable reason for it. He also thinks marriage tends to complicate relationships. She grows livid, but the topic is never brought up again until Maddie’s father passes away, a man who accomplished much in his eventful life and will be remembered long after his death. She’s aware that death can catch her any day, and this thought drives her to leave Anthony, not only because she wants a marriage, but also because she thinks he doesn’t love her (although he does). She wants to receive a proper education, get a decent job and find a stable relationship with a man whose desires are similar to her own. By this time, her daughter (the eldest) is living with her boyfriend; her son (the middle child) is attending the University of Montreal, thus living away from home, and her youngest child is living with his Aunt in Toronto (his mother thought he should be isolated from his troubled friends after he gets his girlfriend pregnant when he’s fourteen, expecting that if he continues down such a path, he will ultimately ends up exactly like her). Anthony is left despondent and hoping that she will come back, therefore obstinately refuses to date another woman. He tries to track her down through her sisters, but neither will inform him of her whereabouts. His friends are livid with his behavior and encourage him to move on. After several months, he decides to give dating a chance, but he finds no interest in the women he sees. He’s about to give up dating altogether and go back to yearning for Maddie’s return when he meets a girls he’s genuinely attracted to. They both agree, however, to take things slowly. Sadly the relationship ends when the girl realizes Anthony is still in love with Maddie.

I know the characters are both very complicated and possess a bundle of imperfections, but they do genuinely care about each other. Although Maddie contains herself well, she continuously contemplates going back to live with Anthony.

So, yeah, that’s basically what the situation is. I was a bit dubious about whether Anthony’s attachment to her was realistic or not, and reading your opinions has convinced me it is. He certainly does see Maddie as much more than a girlfriend, more of a life partner, but I was just giving the basic idea. I didn’t think that just because I stated her as being his girlfriend, people would read into it as him not being interested in her as anything more than that.

PoliceArtist, this is actually the only story I have saved on my file that centers on characters that aren’t even relatively close to my age. It’s a bit challenging, but if I complete this story, read it over, and take notice of how horrible I am at writing through the eyes of a middle-aged man or woman, this will probably be my final attempt. I must have unintentionally made it seem as if Anthony was entirely culpable, but perhaps if I were more enlightening, you would have noticed that they are equally accountable for how their lives unfolded. I must respectively disagree that just because a man does not propose to his wife, it does not categorize him as being a bum. Sanctity and commitment can be present in a couple that has been together for twenty ears. A couple can be bound together whether it is certified by marriage or not. Reading other responses, I see that there are many others who share similar beliefs.

Again, thank you so much for your replies. I mulled over whether or not I should go back and change his personality entirely, now I’m relieved that his character isn’t so far-fetched that people will find themselves unable to relate to him on any level.
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Old 09-26-2006, 05:11 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by theflowerofcarnage
I know the characters are both very complicated and possess a bundle of imperfections,
That's what'll lift them off the page and make them real people. Your outline sounds extremely readable - good luck with it.
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Old 09-27-2006, 08:53 AM   #23
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"She fears her parents will be ashamed of her behavior and heatedly kick her out of the house."

A little while back I read a Slate article, where an economist took a look at reproductive decisions. One of the points he made was that when adults make such decisions, their thoughts are about how a child will affect their lives for the next couple decades. Teens, on the other hand, seem more worried about what their parents will think.

Being male and middle-aged, this distinction was something I hadn't considered till then. I see your summary goes into that issue too.

And I wouldn't be too worried about getting thinks exactly right off the bat - I don't think you'll be too far off the mark. Plus, you can also post drafts on writing boards for input.

-Frank
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