The Marshall Plan - Writers Forum

S1E9A8N5 · 07-31-2006, 10:34 PM

I don't know if this is exactly the right spot to post this but I have a question regarding Evan Marshall's "The Marshall Plan" books.

I'm thinking of getting both the "The Marshall Plan for Novel Writing: A 16 Step Program", and the "Marshall Plan Workbook" but I might just choose one. I was wondering for those of you who are familiar with these books if you could tell me which one would be better help and advice? or do they work as one?

Sean

galt · 07-31-2006, 10:44 PM

Heh, at first I thought this thread was about the Marshall Plan, you know the plan of the United States for rebuilding the allied countries of Europe and repelling communism after World War II.
I haven't read either of these books, but maybe you could find out from Amazon reviews which is more helpful or if they go together or whatnot. Just go to Amazon.com, type in the titles, and select the "book" category, and then when the page shows just scroll down and read the reviews.

suzakugaiden · 07-31-2006, 11:31 PM

"Heh, at first I thought this thread was about the Marshall Plan, you know the plan of the United States for rebuilding the allied countries of Europe and repelling communism after World War II."

Me too :O

Mike C · 08-01-2006, 01:37 AM

You're better to spend your money on a Strunk & White. No book will make you a better writer, but S&W will make you more accurate.

S1E9A8N5 · 08-01-2006, 05:23 AM

I know programs and books can't help you write better. I don't want help "writing". I just want help organizing and structuring my thoughts. I'm probably going to get the workbook because it has character charts, forms, and plot templates. Thanks though.

Sean

Dave King · 08-01-2006, 02:06 PM

Let me admit up front that I'm a bit biased. (See my signature for the reasons.) But . . . I've always been suspicious of books that break writing down to a paint-by-numbers series of setps. I think it's perfectly reasonable to buy books that teach you writing techniques (again, bias, see sig.), since techniques are tools that you can either use or discard depending on the situation. But an step-by-step approach?
I've had clients who have laid out their entire plots in a schematic diagram (including subplots, main threads of character development, etc.) before writing the first scene. I've had clients sit down and write the first two hundred pages, then realize they have no idea what happens next. And I've seen a bit of everything in between.
There is no right way to approach writing a novel. Instead, there is the best way for you to write your novel. I suppose books like Marshall's might show you an approach that fits your style (I've never read Marshall's book), but I rather doubt it. If you're just starting out in writing, it's comforting to have someone tell you you're doing it right. Resist the temptation of that comfort.
Find your own path, little grasshopper.

S1E9A8N5 · 08-01-2006, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Let me admit up front that I'm a bit biased. (See my signature for the reasons.) But . . . I've always been suspicious of books that break writing down to a paint-by-numbers series of setps. I think it's perfectly reasonable to buy books that teach you writing techniques (again, bias, see sig.), since techniques are tools that you can either use or discard depending on the situation. But an step-by-step approach?
I've had clients who have laid out their entire plots in a schematic diagram (including subplots, main threads of character development, etc.) before writing the first scene. I've had clients sit down and write the first two hundred pages, then realize they have no idea what happens next. And I've seen a bit of everything in between.
There is no right way to approach writing a novel. Instead, there is the best way for you to write your novel. I suppose books like Marshall's might show you an approach that fits your style (I've never read Marshall's book), but I rather doubt it. If you're just starting out in writing, it's comforting to have someone tell you you're doing it right. Resist the temptation of that comfort.
Find your own path, little grasshopper.

I will take that into consideration

But I still may get it just to see what he has to offer. I know that I don't want to plan every scene because then that could lead to what you said; not knowing what to do next. But I would like to see how he structures a story through the character charts, forms, and plot templates. A beginning, a middle, climax, and an end I guess isn't enough for me to start writing. I want an idea of how to structure a plot. I know people disagree with it because people should just "wing it" and "find your own path". Like I said, I don't want help writing. I just would like a guide to how to structure a story. I doubt I will use everything he has the way he has it. I just would like his opinion.

Sean

imrhati · 08-01-2006, 04:07 PM

ho honestly i thik you would be better off just asking us, there are a ton of experts on this site.

Mike C · 08-01-2006, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave King

Resist the temptation of that comfort.
Find your own path, little grasshopper.

Sound advice. Tell me, Dave, can you recommend a good book on self-editing?

But seriously, character charts, plot charts, emotion graphs, empathy maps, whatever, sounds like the fastest way to a sterile formulaeic hotch-potch going.

S1E9A8N5 · 08-01-2006, 05:17 PM

I might not get it anyway. Might just focus on the books I like, and other storylines that I like and see how they structure there plot etc. I don't really want to waste my money.

Quote:

ho honestly i thik you would be better off just asking us, there are a ton of experts on this site.

Anytime I ask this board for advice, they just say "wing it" and "find your own path"... its not much help for a beginner.

Mike C · 08-01-2006, 07:13 PM

If you want advice, then read voraciously, write like your life depends on it, and be prepared to make mistakes. It's the only way to learn.

CZ · 08-02-2006, 03:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S1E9A8N5

Anytime I ask this board for advice, they just say "wing it" and "find your own path"... its not much help for a beginner.

It's hard to give advice for everyone, though. What works for one doesn't for another. Nobody here is going to begrudge you buying a writing book, but there again you run into the whole individual taste issue again.

I was a how-to book junkie for awhile and I still have cravings to go on amazon.com and peek at the latest writing books, but I refuse to buy any.

Out of about 8 of the "how to write" books that I own, there's only one that I read more than once every so often. I even bought some software that's supposed to help organize plots/characters. I used it once and then put it aside... it was terrible.

There seems to be a common theme among some writing books, and it goes something like: "You're a writer! Yay! Woohoo! Welcome to the club. Do this exercise - pack a picnic basket, buy a bottle of champagne, buy some strawberries. Go sit by a sparkling stream where there is nobody around, under a willow tree on a special picnic basket. After you have eaten, leisurely write about your day."

Total waste of time. I could do the same thing at my desk or on a lunch break, or after work, or wherever. The champagne and strawberries are totally extraneous and I don't need a damn sparkling stream to write by, and why am I reading about this, anyway?

A lot of these books cater to the people who think that they can only write "when inspiration strikes" and to the people who feel they need an excuse to pamper themselves. One main point is reiterated throughout: Anybody can be a writer. We all know that, so why do the books keep repeating themselves? Ego-stroking? ("I, too, am a writer, just like the book says!")

The one frilly type book that I use/read more than once in a blue moon is "A Writer's Book of Days" by Judy Reeves. I use it because it has hundreds of writing prompts that I can really get into, but if someone dislikes writing prompts, it'll be completely useless because what's in there is only common sense.

Perseverance, self-discipline, practice, some degree of self-confidence, and imaginative ability will get you further than 4-5 days of reading a majority of the how-to books. I'd much rather read novels than how-to books.

Mike C · 08-02-2006, 05:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CZ

One main point is reiterated throughout: Anybody can be a writer.

The only one I know who (refreshingly) departs from this is Stephen King, in 'On Writing'.

He states - and I believe, correctly - that good writing cannot be taught. A terrible writer will always be a terrible writer, the mediocre will remain mediocre, the good stay good and the genius - well, they have it all already.

The point is that teaching is all about mechanics and nothing to do with synapses. A poor writer may be able to add spelling and grammar to his/her arsenal, but (s)he'll still be a poor writer.

You cannot teach creativity. You can't learn to imagine. It's an uncomfortable concept to grasp, but it's a lot better than the lies that ego-stroking entails.

Kamisama · 08-02-2006, 06:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike C

You're better to spend your money on a Strunk & White. No book will make you a better writer, but S&W will make you more accurate.

I recently read How to Write like a Pro.

The book was filled with little tricks and tips that would allow a person to make words and sentences blend. Sentences that lead to the next one would help lower cognitive load of the reader. And connecting with the psychology of the reader is what helps make an accomplished writer.

I wrote an article about the book on Amazon.com.

mwd · 08-02-2006, 06:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike C

You cannot teach creativity. You can't learn to imagine. It's an uncomfortable concept to grasp, but it's a lot better than the lies that ego-stroking entails.

Normally I agree with you, but I have to take exception to this, not out of ego stroking but just because it doesn't coincide with my own personal experience. I think writing has made me more creative. When I'm working on a story now, I have a lot more ideas of where I can take it, as opposed to when I first started writing (where I would stare at white space for hours wondering what the hell I was going to write about). I agree that it can't be "taught" or "learned", really, but I think it can be developed through frequent use. You can't "learn" to make your muscles bigger, but you can go to the gym, and gradually, slowly, painfully, it gets easier (and then of course you stack on more weight ... more complicated story ideas, more twists, more layers of meaning and imagery, all sorts of things you couldn't have handled previously but now can just barely lift).

I don't know, maybe all that stuff was there to begin with and just needed to be unlocked, but I don't think so. I do think that anyone can be a writer, provided they're bound and determined (and by bound and determined I mean sitting down to write at least 2000 words a day, constantly trying new ideas, editing and submitting like mad, and so on). Desire to write certainly can't be developed, but I think that creativity can be, if you put the effort in to getting your brain into that creative mental state where the ideas seem to flow.

On the other hand, I think most people tend to mistake a "lack of creativity" for fear. They do have ideas, they're just afraid that they're going to be stupid, or they're too crazy, or whatever. They say they have no "good ideas" to write about, but in reality they're simply censoring themselves.

At least that's what I think, as someone who always liked to read but didn't think he had a creative bone in his body, but tried anyway and is now improving.