Fair Usage or Theft? - Writers Forum

Mike C · 07-24-2006, 05:46 AM

We all love using the words of others to reinforce an argument, to disprove someone else's, or just for the vicarious pleasure of having something interest in our thread or signature line.

But when is this right and proper, and when is it copyright theft? Let me show you an example:

"And by the way, everything in life is writable about if you have the outgoing guts to do it, and the imagination to improvise. The worst enemy to creativity is self-doubt."

Now if I were to slip that, as is, into one of my posts, probably 90% of members wouldn't recognise it, but it's plagiarism (that little thing we all get upset about when we think it's going to happen to us). I have stolen someone else's words and, whether I meant to or not, passed them off as my own.

Now, if I also tell you:

"And by the way, everything in life is writable about if you have the outgoing guts to do it, and the imagination to improvise. The worst enemy to creativity is self-doubt."
Sylvia Plath

then all is well. How hard is that? One is breaking the law, the other isn't. One is plagiarism, the other is Fair Usage.

There are 3 very good reasons for citing your sources:

1: It's unethical not to. Regardless of legalities, do you want to steal copyright, or uphold the principle by quoting your source? How would you like it if they were your words?

2: It's illegal not to. To plagiarise - to quote without attributing the words to the original author - is breaking the law, and potentially leaves both you and the owner of the site open to prosecution.

3: Quoting your sources makes you look cool, knowledgeable and well read - and we all want people to think we're cool.

Bottom line is... if you quote someone, tell us who it is. If you don't know, look it up on Google. If you can't find out, don't use the quote. Ever.

Dawnstorm · 07-24-2006, 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike C

Bottom line is... if you quote someone, tell us who it is. If you don't know, look it up on Google. If you can't find out, don't use the quote. Ever.

Interesting aside. What about quoting something to find out who said it? (Googling might not help if you mis-remember a key word.) Does the context of query constitute "fair use", even as, by the nature of it, you can't quote the source (or be verbatim, for that matter)?

Mike C · 07-24-2006, 08:04 AM

If you're paraphrasing (as you would be if you don't remember the quote exactly), it's less of an issue, particularly as the query itself indicates that you yourself did not originate the words.

Anne Lacey · 07-24-2006, 09:44 AM

I agree wholeheartedly. Especially about seeming much more knowledgable when you site your source.

Kane · 07-24-2006, 09:46 AM

If you use quotation marks around it, you are not passing it off as your own. You would have to leave those out, paraphrase, or actually claim it as your own in order to do that. I don't think quoting something without stating the author is unethical unless you are doing it with the intent of claiming it as your own. There are many ancient words of wisdom for which the author is unknowable, should we not use them at all? As for illegality, I doubt that any site or individual can be prosecuted for using a quote on a message board.

Mike C · 07-24-2006, 09:55 AM

It's quite simple, Kane. If you have enough respect for someone's words to quote them, have enough respect for the writer to attribute them.

If the original writer's name is lost in time, and the source cannot be found, then 'anon' will suffice.

And yes, sites can be prosecuted for copyright violations. It has happened, it continues to happen. More often, the site owner gets a rebuke and told to remove the quote or attribute it correctly, but prosecutions have occurred. And even if they didn't... does 'getting away with it' stop it being theft?

Kane · 07-24-2006, 10:07 AM

If I used a quote, I would quote the source. So this doesn't apply to me. However, I think you are making too big a deal of this. Many quotable sayings are nothing new, meaning that they are based on ideas of old. Is it a lack of respect not to attribute to someone the credit for using his paraphrasing of an ancient wisdom? Maybe, but I don't think it's unethical, unless you try to claim it as your own.

And I would like to see evidence of an instance where someone on a forum was prosecuted for using a quote in his sig or argument without properly attributing it to the author, or where a site was prosecuted or reprimanded because a user on their board did not properly attribute a quotel..

FrankBlissett · 07-24-2006, 11:01 AM

Just a note on semantics.

IMHO, whether or not a quote is properly attributed is irrelevant to "fair use". Rather than being coded in law (at least in the USA), fair use is a legal principle developed by the courts to help determine just when something crosses over that blurry boundary into copyright infringement.

And yes, fair use does take into consideration the type of use. Educational, scholarly and journalistic uses are given more leeway. It also depends on what portion of the original work is used, and how much of the new work is made up of the original source. And, again, there is NO standard - just a set of legal precedents.

-Frank

Fantasy of You · 07-24-2006, 12:16 PM

I agree with Kane. Although I would disagree with quoting another person's work without acknowledging it, and although I would acknowledge it personally, I think you are taking the matter a little too seriously. Taking people's quotes without acknowledging it is no big deal lol. Taking excerps from their writing is another matter.. But ANYWAY (rambling, lol), I do think that not naming the source shows a lack of respect. It's as bad as littering.. And I don't see any vigilantees patrolling the streets for paper

Fantasy

Selorian · 07-24-2006, 03:05 PM

This was written by Mike for the Writing 101 forum at my request. So he isn't the one taking it too seriously, it's me.

I'm copying the thread to Writing 101 now, but I'm leaving it here as well since there seems to be some discussion. If it starts to take the same turn the other thread did, it will be locked. So keep it on-topic and don't let comments get personal.

I've included some of the posts by other members made in reply to Mike's post. If you'd rather your post not be included in the Writing 101 post, please let me know and I'll remove it.

Anne Lacey · 07-24-2006, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Selorian

This was written by Mike for the Writing 101 forum at my request. So he isn't the one taking it too seriously, it's me.

Thank you, Selorian. I think it needed to be said and I'm glad you asked Mike to do it.

Kane · 07-24-2006, 03:33 PM

You removed my response to his "if you have respect" attack. Since you did that, I'd appreciate it if you would remove my presence from the thread altogether, as well as his reply to me, as the thread currently appears to be something other than what it was. I think it's also fair, since he is claiming that using an unattributed quote in your sig or post is illegal and can bring repercussions against the user and the site, that he back it up with some evidence. If this is going into writing 101, it should have an air of professionalism, and something to back it up, rather than be written as one side of a forum argument.

Selorian · 07-24-2006, 03:57 PM

I'll do what I originally intended and post only Mike's original post in Writing 101. I thought some of the replies seemed like good info, but if it causes problems, it's better to leave them out.

Fantasy of You · 07-24-2006, 04:26 PM

Lol. I read Kane's reply, I don't get why it was deleted but nvm I guess. ANYWAY.. IMHO I think you should maybe put some of his replies onto the locked thread, because if someone new comes to the forum and reads it, he will believe it without question, when clearly question exists..

Anyway, cheer up everyone ^^ smilies

Fantasy

Anne Lacey · 07-24-2006, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fantasy of You

Lol. I read Kane's reply, I don't get why it was deleted but nvm I guess. ANYWAY.. IMHO I think you should maybe put some of his replies onto the locked thread, because if someone new comes to the forum and reads it, he will believe it without question, when clearly question exists..

Anyway, cheer up everyone ^^ smilies

Fantasy

Just because you question it doesn't make it any less true. Hopefully, new writers will read it and actually know the legalities.