mammamaia

which kinda reinforces my 'bias-based' opinion that king wouldn't be the be-all and end-all of writing how-to gurus... sounds to me like his title should be 'on my writing'!

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Mike C

Ominous, your ignorance grows with every post. How many times do I have to tell you? unicycle.

See Krim's post re: On Writing.

From what I have seen of the book so far, and from what I have gleaned from others who've read and enjoyed it, is he doesn't tell you how to write. He doesn't let you in on the big secrets of 'how to be a famous writer' because there aren't any. But a lot of people have found the book to be inspirational, which is why I've broken with habit and better judgement and bought it. If it's crap, I'll tell you when I finish it.

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Dawnstorm

On Writing has increased my respect for King, as well as given me a better handle on why I don't particularly like his writing (with exceptions; most of them short stories).

***

Elements of Style should be called The Elements of Our Style, too. (A sub-title could be: How to sound like a bold American frontiersman.)

***

Neither book works for me, but On Writing was - at least - interesting. King's autobiographical approach helps understand his decisions.

Rob

Can't resist the name-calling, Mike, can you. Lets you down every time.

Kane

That's not name calling. Your comments are pretty ignorant, as you're speaking about something which you admittedly don't know about. Even a fool, when he is silent, people will think him wise. Perhaps, since you haven't read the book, you shouldn't make judgements about it. That seems to be the prudent thing to do.

Selorian

Let's not let things get personal.

For the OP: I don't think you'll ever find a book that'll help you write a novel. That comes from within you, nowhere else. What you will find are plenty of books that share tips and advice from other writers on how they approach the craft. If they work for you, fine, but they still won't help you write a novel.

King's On Writing at least never makes the claim that it will do that. What it does do is provide inspriration to those who have read it, making them feel like writing. And the title, although On Writing, never claims to be more than his own personal approach on how he writes. As Mike C pointed out already, he states that from the very beginning, and he never deviates from it.

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Rob

To the OP, be suspicious about people who resort to this type of thing. Mike C and Kane have both chosen to attack me for having an opinion that differs from their own. Kane says my comments are ignorant. Mike C says how-to books will not help you write a novel. They are both wrong.

Here is your original question:

looking for book that help write novels(dialoge,narrator,plot structer,ect ..ect...)

Some have offered Strunk and White. It's a book on grammar and style. It won't tell you about dialogue. The best you can hope for is some advice on punctuating dialogue, but even then it's not much to go on. For dialogue, read Stein's Solutions for Writers. It has an excellent chapter devoted to dialogue and it will improve your writing in that area.

Some have suggested reading plenty of novels. This is always good advice, of course, but where one person said read novels and not how-to books, this is poor advice. It's poor because (a) it's too generic; which novels will help you and which won't? What if you read poor novels? How will you know the difference? (b) you won't necessarily recognise the techniques employed by the authors, and will therefore be likely to make beginnery errors in your own writing. This is practically a certainty. On forums such as this, almost all of the writing is poor, naturally, because many beginners come here - and that's fine, it's not a criticism. Why is their writing poor? Well, it's tempting to believe they've never read any novels. Talk to them. You'll find that this is untrue. Many of them will have read a large number of novels. So why do they still write poor dialogue, baggy prose, unreadable openings? Perhaps reading novels is not enough on its own, then. So what else? Contrary to what is suggested above, there are how-to books that will help you with your technique, and in the areas you ask about.

Yes, read plenty. If your grammar is poor, get Strunk and White or one of the many other books on grammar or style. It'll still leave you needing something more to achieve your goal.

Others have recommended On Writing. It has been suggested that my comments are ignorant, that I've never read it. Actually, I've had a damn good look through it so I have a good feel for the contents. As I said previously (and it's not difficult to check) I could see that King's On Writing would not be useful to me because I already had a good selection of books and King's would give me nothing new. I don't need a King biography, the guy doesn't interest me, and the rest of the book I don't need. From what I've seen I'd say it falls short of Stein's Solutions for Writers, but it may still be helpful for some people and that's fine.

Stein's book is excellent. I'd say it's near on ideally matched to answer your question. Stein draws upon his experience as an editor and publisher, having handled many well known novelists, and provides a book that is full of practical advice. It will improve your writing. I doubt that Kane and Mike C have read it, but we have the somewhat ludicrous suggestion that it will turn you into a chimp on a bicycle. Ignore such comments. I've read some poor how-to books, they do exist, and Stein's is not one of them. If it helps, I know others who have read it, and who themselves have an excellent record as writers, and they also think highly of the book.

I'd read plenty of novels, all kinds, genre and non-genre and literary, and the dialogue in my stories was still poor. Stein's book helped me to sharpen up my dialogue, explained what good dialogue is, techniques you can learn in minutes. It will improve your writing. The book is aimed at people just like you and me.

It will also help you with plotting, with handling the narrator, and many other areas too. Far from being ignorant, I speak from experience. Ignore people who turn threads into a personal issue just because you disagree with them. If they can't answer the points made directly, and without resorting to name calling, you have to be suspicious about what they're telling you.

Characterisation, plotting, suspense, creating tension, good dialogue, point of view, flashbacks and back story, credibility, these and other areas are all covered by Stein, and covered well, far better than other how-to books that I've read. If these areas interest you, I would say check out the book in your bookstore and see what you think.

Frey's book is excellent too, I've had it for about 18 months and the emphasis is quite different to Stein's. In a way they complement each other. The two books, used together, will improve your writing. From the question you asked, I would say Stein's is the place to start, but Frey's will also help you and I would strongly recommend it. These two books will do far more for you in terms of making you a better writer than Strunk and White (which I've owned and read, and approve of) or just reading novels. Don't be put off by the negativity of the thread towards me by a couple of posters, check out the books for yourself.

I don't doubt that Stein's Solutions for Novelists will aid you too, but owning both I'd say start with Solutions for Writers. The Novelists book covers some of the same ground, helpful though it is, but would still make a good addition to your collection after Solutions for Writers and Frey's book.

I have other books that are aimed at novelists, each of which is helpful to some degree, but for the question you've asked the recommendations above are far more helpful and, to be honest, much better books all round.

Good luck. Cheers,
Omni

Mike C

Ominous, your rants are overlength and tiresome. And inaccurate.

Strunk and White has a whole section on dialogue. It's not just about punctuation.

If the books you're pushing work for you, fine, but let me reiterate my position, working from a viewpoint of 25-odd years in various aspects of publishing, running writers' workshops, and editing.

I've known, and worked with, many published novelists, and also frequent closed forums for pro writers and editors. Some have read 'How to' books, some haven't. The ones that are most commonly cited as being either useful or invaluable are King's 'On Writing' and Strunk & White. In fact I'd go as far as to say I know very few professional writers who don't own a copy of S&W. What I'm liking so far about 'On Writing' is that King isn't offering easy fixes - and his suggestion is that you READ. And from what others have told me (I haven't got that far yet) the main benefit of King's book is not that he tells you how to write - he readily admits that if you can write, you can write, and if you can't, nothing anyone tells you will change that - but that he creates an excitement about writing that makes people want to get down and just DO it.

I also know from editing experience that you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. People can either write well, or they can't, and no book in the world will tell you how to structure a simple sentence, how to make a paragraph flow, or how to exploit your vocabulary for best effect.

'How to' books can teach you so called tricks of the trade, but I think that tricks learned by rote are ineffective and counter-productive; they're just tricks, hence my allusion to monkeys on unicycles - looks clever on the surface, but of no real value.

Now, as I said, I know and have known many, many successful writers, and every single one of them is a voracious reader. That's where you learn. For instance, I could give a detailed guide to how to write a short story that sells. Or alternatively I could guide you to shorts by Chekov (generally acknowledged as the father of modern short fiction), De Maupassant, and a selection of others and you can see for yourself.

Look at it another way - would you rather read a sex manual or have sex?

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Kane

I have not attacked you, Omnius, though you are really tempting me right now. Your comments were fairly ignorant, and you accused Mike of calling you names because he said so. I was just reinforcing that he wasn't name calling. And as for attacks, you already called my advice laughable. I'm not going to read that giant rant, because this is supposed to be a thread to make a few suggestions. Perhaps if you could have stuck to that task, instead of talking shit about other people's suggestions, you wouldn't be in the sticky icky mess you're in now.

Rob

Compare my last post with your last post, Kane.

Now, get over it.

Cheers,
Omni

valeca

Agree to disagree--it's the simple solution.


I view King's On Writing in a different light. I don't see it as a 'how to' book at all. It's like talking to a career counselor (or guidance counselor, for the younger group). They often tell people to contact individuals already established in the prospective field and pick their brains. They recommend asking what roadblocks the person has come up against, how they overcame them, what their day actually consists of, what successes they’ve had and how they achieved them, what didn’t work and why, what (if any) pitfalls one might find along the way, and what areas might be good to focus on. The list goes on and on. Talking to someone in a prospective industry is an invaluable resource, and that’s what I see On Writing as—an inside look into one person’s (albeit a well known one) career, and one way to help map out one’s own ‘game plan’.


King talks about how he got where he is, what influences helped shape his writing, what works for him, and gives his opinion on achieving success as a writer. I don’t remember him stating his way is the only way, or even that it’s the ‘right’ way. It’s just his way and his experiences along the road. If nothing else, it’s an entertaining read and a peek into one author’s life, and, after talking to people about the book, most of them thought it was motivational—which is always a positive even if they didn’t agree with his approach.

I’d recommend not focusing on which ‘how to’ books you should read, but rather on reading in general. Each novel out there is a ‘how to’ (or ‘how not to’, as the case may be for some). Read as many as you can to see what made them publishing-worthy. Then just get on with writing and enjoy what you do!

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Selorian

After so many people have made points of exactly what King's On Writing is and isn't, I'd like to point out something. The title isn't simply On Writing, it's On Writing: A Memoir of the Craft. The word 'memoir' clearly implies that it is his personal experiences he's talking about.

The final point of the matter is that there is not any book that will help you write a novel. There are books that will help you in learning the craft, books that will show you how others approach it, and books that will teach you the basics of grammar and so forth. All these are tools that may or may not help you in becoming a writer. None of them will help you write a novel, though.

Now, I see where no one has been insulted or attacked any more than another. That being the case, I think we all just need to let it go and stick to the topic of the original post. Everyone has the right to their opinion without it being called laughable. If you feel the need to argue, then move it to the debate forum and do it the proper way.

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kad barma

to all sides of the previous personal disagreements... (stolen from that really smart guy named "anonymous")

best advised not to argue with fools, lest observers have their trouble discerning the difference

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Rob

Are you arguing semantics here, Selorian? What is the basis of your argument that no books can help you to write a novel? There are books that claim to do prcecisely that, and succeed in varying degrees. I'm assuming you haven't read every book of the type and concluded that none of them help.

In the context of the original question, Huxley elaborated a little on the type of help sought:

looking for book that help write novels(dialoge,narrator,plot structer,ect ..ect...)

There are indeed books that can help you to understand these and other areas of novel writing. Some have been suggested already, others exist. Marshall's Novel Writing, 16 Steps to Success for example, covers plotting and structure for novelists. If you come at the subject without any knowledge of these areas and the book provides some understanding that helps you to approach writing your own novel, is this not, then, a book that can help you to write a novel?

The books will not write your novel for you, no-one is claiming they cover or provide the complete range of attributes a writer needs, but all else being equal, these books can help, surely. And in the context of Huxley's question, some of the recommendations might, for Huxley, be a worthwhile investment.

Cheers,
Omni

Mike C

It seems he feels the need.

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