Mike C

I disagree. Solutions for Writers, or Frey's Damn Good Fiction, or whatever, will teach you a few tricks, maybe. A few writerly techniques, but they won't teach you how to be a better writer. They won't make you more imaginative or creative. In isolation they'll turn you into a chimp on a unicylce - moderately amusing, but just a primate that learned a new trick. remember, Shakespeare never read a 'how to' book in his life.

The only way you can learn, and expand your mind, and see how all those tricks are used by the masters (and not the ringmasters) is to read. Classics as well as contemporary. I agree with CBR that you need to write with a contemporary style, but I'd suggest that reading Voltaire, Chekov and De Maupassant (amongst many, many others) will help you do so. The latter two virtually defined the parameters of the modern short story.

Stick to doing it your way, Ominous, I enjoy monkeys on unicycles.

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Rob

If you bother to read my posts, Mike, instead of posting comments about chimps on bicycles, you'll see that I never spoke against reading. In fact, I said the advice to read is true and can't be over-emphasised. Nowhere did I recommend reading how-to books in isolation.

What I did do, and what I stand by, is state that reading novels is not enough. As for Stein and Frey teaching you a few 'tricks', they'll teach far more, and yes, they will make you a better writer.

Now, look again at what the OP asked for:

looking for book that help write novels(dialoge,narrator,plot structer,ect ..ect...)

Recommending Strunk and White as an answer is, frankly, laughable. So is saying, "read a lot, and not how-to books". As per my original answer, reading plenty is good advice - in conjunction with something like Stein and Frey. Those two books will indeed improve your writing, and they will indeed meet the OPs need. What they will not do is turn you into a chimp on a bicycle.

Cheers,
Omni

Kane

Actually, I recommended that the best way to learn to write is by reading a lot of books. I suggested Strunk and White because they have some good stuff that you don't learn simply by reading novels. I also recommended King's On Writing because I found it inspirational, and a good insight into the mind of a life-time author. I suggested that there were other books that would help as well, though I couldn't tell you their names.

There is really no need for any further posts, unless you are simply recommending additional books. There is no need to insult me for the advice I gave, as I have found those steps to fit my needs quite adequately. By reading many books, you see it all. I am always reading books by different authors, and have seen it done right, as well as wrong. Though I would dismiss Stein and Frey out of hand, without reading them, I don't see what they could teach me that I couldn't learn by following my own suggestions in the beginning of the thread.

I've had enough of how-to books, because they are generally worthless. Read a how-to book by several different authors, and many times you will get conflicting information. In fact, the advice I received when I first started posting on this board screwed up my writing for over a year--standard how-to advice that was counter-intuitive to my natural style. Finally I was able to overcome this when someone showed me O.S. Card's opinion on the subject. It was then that I realized that I already had the tools to write, because I have read so many books.

Mike C

This is true. you appear to need no help in that direction. And it's a unicycle.

Kane is 100% correct. Read a dozen 'how-to' books, get a dozen opinions. They may all give advice on what worked for them, but it may not work for you.

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Rob

Kane, no-one insulted you. Mike C, this thread is only going in one direction if you're going to call people who express an opinion that differs from your own 'chimps on bicycles'. Shame.

Kane

Omnius, to say that my advice is laughable is an insult. If you can't see that, then maybe you need to brush up on what insult means.

Rob

Kane, if all you'd offered was Strunk and White that might be true (though even then I might argue otherwise). You didn't. You also mentioned reading plenty and reading On Writing, both of which I discussed earlier. If I'd wanted to insult you I'd have done so clearly and directly. People choose to take offence for all kinds of reasons in web forums. If you choose to take offence and act as though I've insulted you here, so be it. I'm not going to make a thread out of you-said-I-said-you-meant-I-meant ... at that point the thread breaks down and is no longer any use to the OP. Nor am I going to resort to petty name calling and ridicule. You have your opinion, which you're entitled to post and defend, Mike has his, and I have mine. Expressing those opinions is fine. Making it a personal issue because you don't agree with an expressed opinion is a pointless waste of time.

If you want to be feel insulted, go right ahead. I've said nothing directly to insult you.

Cheers,
Omni

kad barma

is no one else struck by the irony of someone asking for resources on how to write a novel using a forum post entitled "know any book that help you write a novel", and then receiving advice that rejects a book like "the elements of style" as a possible starting point?

imho, the help most needed, based on my impressions of the question, is precisely found in books like S&W. (observing that the body of the post not only repeats the subject/verb disagreement between "book" and "help", but then also goes further to misspell "dialoge", "structer" and "ect", i'm tempted to suggest we also offer advice on dictionaries and spell checkers too, but i digress).

some might feel this pedantic and off the point of novel-writing, but under the general heading of "walk before you run", i'd feel best about counseling practice on hitting all the notes before aiming someone's sights on a complete symphony.

but, hey, that's just one man's anal retentive opinion...

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kad barma

to the op:

dialogue and narrative style are both helped by reviewing style texts like strunk & white's "the elements of style". i haven't read king's book that's receiving similar attention here, but if it helpfully addresses these same points, i'd suggest it's worth considering.

plot structure, and the overall construction of a novel as a specific written form is obviously an entirely different issue. i'm always fascinated by how some writers, like dickens, can construct a masterful novel out of serialized pieces. (my inference being that the author has not begun with a unified outline as a guide). by contrast, i've heard many stories of how the "bones" of a novel are created by some authors, (outlines, etc.), onto which they then hang the "meat" of their prose. myself, i've failed at both approaches, so i wouldn't consider my advice worth much, other than to point out that it appears most folks find their own style and approach, and you might do some reflection on what suits your particular strengths best.

good luck!

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Selorian

I agree with what Kane, Maia, and Mike C are saying here.

How-to books are fine, but all you are going to get are the things the author has found to work for them. You may be able to adapt some of them for yourself, but by themselves, a writer they do not make. To put them into practical use, you have to read at the same time.

My thoughts on it, there isn't a book out there that will help you write a novel. Many will promise to do it, but all they are is another way for someone to make money by offering something they can't deliver. The ones I find most interesting, though, are the ones like King's On Writing. It is interesting, inspiring, and informative, all without making grand promises like so many other how-to books do.

Read a lot of books and look at how-to books, understanding all they do is show techniques that worked for the person who wrote them. Use what works, toss the rest, and never take anything from any of them as gospel.

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Mike C

Funnily enough I got my copy of King's 'On Writing' today (along with S&W).

I immediately warmed to him when I read "This is a short book because most books about writing are filled with bullshit...

One notable exception to the bullshit rule is 'The Elements of Style' by Strunk & White."

So far he's gone 112 pages without presuming to tell me how to write, and I'm liking him more with every page.

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SilkFX

Basically. Well said, selorian.

How do you write a novel? Read some novels. See how they're put together. Figure out what makes them work or not work. (These last two things are key to "reading as a writer," see below.) Then go write. Expect to throw a lot of it out. Keep going until you hit the required number of words.

Apparently there's a book coming out that will help you on the concept of reading as a writer:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/006...lance&n=283155

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Rob

Interesting Mike. How many pages? I ask because according to Amazon it has more pages than the books I recommended earlier, the ones you suggest turn you into a chimp on a bicycle. King must have added some bullshit to his.

Wanna banana?

mwd

FYI, the first half (I think it's about half. Been a while since I read it. Maybe a little less.) of the book is a short autobiography of his early years, so only half of On Writing actually contains "advice".

I really loved reading his autobiography, especially the part where he wrote a short story adaptation of the movie adaptation of The Pit and the Pendulum, and then tried selling it at his school ... lol.

Krim

I just got my copy as well, Mike C, along with Elements of Style. Autobiography begins on page 3, ends at 131. 297 pages total, so a little less than half is invested into the autobiography, mwd.