Mike C

You do indeed presume, ghent. When you're a little older you'll understand the rules, and where and when you can distort or break them, but until then please don't make incorrect correctiont that change the emphasis of what I say.

Remember, those things your teacher are telling you in school are fine for laying the foundations, but you'll need to relearn a lot of stuff if you want and expect to write seriously.

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Kamisama

Obi-Wan: But Master Yoda says I should be mindful of the future.
Qui-Gon Jinn: But not at the expense of the moment.

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Mike C

I think you're bypassing the point somewhat. You can create a more intelligent world through words, and aside from some dissent on punctuation, it's the words in between that have the impact. What I'm saying is that if you use 1, 2 or 10 semi colons in a 100k word novel, nobody will reject it on those grounds if the words are good enough. A copy editor further down the line may take all or some of them out, but they won't be the reason for rejection.

If you use 1, 2 or 10 on every page, it sticks out like the proverbial sore thumb and, if I were reading it, unless the writing was truly exceptional, I'd reject it by page 2. And have done.

And now (Ghent, yes, my teacher told me I should never start a sentence with 'and' too, so stand back from your wonky soap-box) I'm going to go against what I said in the first para.

Punctuation is incredibly important. Most people use far too many commas, for example. Learn how to use it - even the semi-colon - and then learn how to abuse it, how to make it do tricks to make your sentences sit up and beg. You may only ever use the period, comma and question-mark (as Garza has said) and your writing will probably be better for it, but make sure you know how, and every time you punctuate, make sure it's correct and justified.

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Kamisama

What's up with the hyphen in 'semi-colon'?
There is no spoon.. ert.. hyphen.
Why did you use it?

'But' can start a sentence, but I'm old fashioned; therefore, I don't like to use conjuctions to start sentences.

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ghent96

No, you made a mistake, got called on it by some forum "newbie" that you look down upon, and your ego's too big. I don't presume. I'm sure you have great advice to give Mike C, but you don't & didn't write the all holy rules of grammar. I didn't change any of your precious emphasis either, see below...

If and only if you consider your forum posts to be dialogue, then I can see a "But" and "And" being proper sentence starters. In that case, and the example between Obi-Wan and Yoda (though movie dialogue should not grammar rules make), you and they are continuing each other's sentences with the leading conjuctions. The leading conjunction then is the emphasis that you are indeed continuing their sentence or rebutting it.

Just like the arguments against using the semi-colon - there are sometimes more acceptable methods with which to join sentences - there are more proper ways to write a sentence without a conjuction as the first word.

"And now I am going to contradict..."
vs.
"Now, I am going to contradict..."

I think the latter is more proper and more acceptable, and there is no loss of continuity from your other sentences nor the loss of the sense that you are going to contradict or rebutt something you said earlier.

Rules are there for a reason. The rules of our language make our language. They cannot and should not be broken on the whims of one person, nor be corrupted by experimentation when the proper methods of constructing the same sentences already exist. On AOL or cell phones I'd expect to see rampant abuses of English. I came here expecting not to see people engage in ridiculous whims like trying to abolish certain punctuation marks and start sentences with conjunctions!

This is depressing/disappointing.

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Mike C

Ghent, the more you think, the less interesting it gets. And whether you think your alternative is 'more proper and more acceptable' than what I actually wrote is of absolutely no conequence.

We must conform. We must not allow the language to evolve. We must not experiment. We must not...

Screw your prohibition, Ghent. How do you think the language got the way it is? By rigid adherence to a linguistic standard?

You do it your way, and don't whine when I do it mine. If it offends you, just look the other way.

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Rob

Some fiction authors manage just fine without using any semi-colons at all. Gabriel Garcia Marquez tends to avoid them, I believe, and suffers no obvious disadvantage. Personally, I don't tend to use them. I also think they're incorrectly used by too many novice writers (usually in the first sentence or paragraph).

Cheers;
Omni

ghent96

Hah. Obviously, it is of consequence to you, or you wouldn't be arguing so much with me.

You sound like a mad rebel with barely a clue, choosing a butcher's knife as your writing implement. Move away from home.

Re-read what I wrote, and try not to let your eyes trip over your fingers or preconceptions. Language evolving and changing over time is of course acceptable and always happens. Language being butchered just because you're angry at one of your secondary or college teachers, and you feel the need to do the exact opposite of what they suggest, is silly. Don't flatter yourself, claiming to be the next step in the evolution of the English language.

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Dawnstorm

But lots of people start sentences with "But"...

ProudestMonkey

I hope you did that as a joke... lol

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Dawnstorm

I've been itching to write this line ever since the discussion(?) started. Then I had a weak moment...

I blame this:

Starting sentences with conjunctions is hardly a revolutionary literary technique. The English speaking and writing world is full of sentences that start with conjunctions. MikeC is the next step in the evolution of the English language for starting sentences with conjunctions? In that particular case, evolution is history. Some obstinate grammar teachers may not know that yet, but that's their problem.

A few links a short search has yielded:

This one's even got a fancy term for it: Anapodoton ("leaving out the main-clause")

Dictionary.com

Business English

Scroll down to "Myths"; or read a bit of what comes before to spot some sentence-starting conjunctions.

Mike C

Ghent, I made no such claim and your sniping has become tiresome; worse, it has become boring. Like I said, you do it your way and I'll do it mine, but don't presume to correct me.

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ghent96

Quote from one of your sites:

"As usual with these issues, the argument is between the way English is used and the way it is 'supposed to be'."

EXACTLY. People aren't using English correctly, mostly when speaking. Spoken English IS often different from written English, unless you are writing dialogue. Then and only then can a person speak with a conjuction starting a sentence... even then it's really more true and accurate to say that person is just pausing between two linked clauses/sentences, that there is a comma intead of a period linking them, and that the conjunction is not capitalised.

Run-on sentences are also [gasp] acceptable in dialogue, although not proper. They are contemptible in actual prose, and cannot be taken seriously. Is anyone here going to suggest that we should all write with run-on sentences along with abolishing semi-colons and starting off with "But"? Shall we perhaps end non-dialogue sentences with "so"? Prepositions? How about tripling or quadrupling up on niftily descriptively adverbs?

Example:

"...only can mean that our current business model leads our department into bankruptcy," he said. He paused to let the information digest and sink into the committee members' heads. "But there is hope. If we can instead look at revolutionizing our standard procedure..."

, or

"...only can mean that our current business model leads our department into bankruptcy," he paused to let the information digest and sink into the committee members' heads, "...but there is hope. If we can instead look at revolutionizing our standard procedure..."

, or

"...only can mean that our current business model leads our department into bankruptcy," he looked at each comittee member, "...but there is hope. If we can instead look at revolutionizing our standard procedure..."

The first example looks like the character started speaking with a conjuction, but did he really? No. The second example properly and clearly shows what is going on. Is there an immensly important difference between this characters' emphases on words? Does he say "BUT there is hope..." or does he say "but there IS hope..."? No, it really doesn't matter. Such emphasis is put in there by the reader themselves, naturally, according to how they hear this character's voice in their heads.

The third example relies on the ellipsis and break in dialogue alone to indicate that "he paused", and simply interjects the important event of him looking around. He technically never finished the previous sentence, but let the conjuction linger unsaid for dramatic purposes.

The same website states, "It's just an arbitrary rule that's been passed through the ages. But all language is arbitrary, isn't it?"

No, of course it's not arbitrary If so, no one would be able to communicate with anyone else with language. It would all be arbitrarily composed, dispensed, and interpreted, without any set standard to coordinate it. One person could say "dog" and another interpret "cat". Seriously, if anyone is going to try to critique and instruct on grammar & composition, they need to put some logical thought into it!


"It's just an arbitrary rule that's been passed through the ages, but all language is arbitrary, isn't it?"

or

"It's just an arbitrary rule that's been passed through the ages; however, all language is arbitrary, isn't it?"

These two above examples would be correct sentences, albeit invalid. If the author is dead-set intent upon conveying a long pause, then they need to use an ellipsis:

"It's just an arbitrary rule that's been passed through the ages, ...but all language is arbitrary, isn't it?"


wihtoutrules omG wee wed just BEGOING nnutszor liek thisandlikeiwantedapauseherebuttheresnoway you WULD everknowitbutID think ihadperfectgrammar cozi arborvitaedly made itup

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Anarkos

This strikes me as a pretty poor reason, and I fear that people will soon use the same rationale for abandoning the apostrophe.

Good point, conceded.

However, in some situations, this is actually a positive reason to use a semi-colon. If there are two important and logically connected clauses that you want your reader to pause on and re-read, then couldn't a semi-colon be a useful device?

I think there is drama in a semi-colon (not to mention logic) which a period can, at times, lack. To replace a semi-colon with a comma is plain wrong, and dashes, I feel, are more suited to parenthetic interuptions and side-points than linking logically connected sentences.

Of course, for most here, myself included, semi-colons are probably the last reason the publisher would to reject our offerings.

I completely disagree. In rare cases, they can be elegant and effective, far moreso than a conjunction.

I can't see anyone arguing for ten semi-colons per page. They're useful in rare cases.

And, Ghent, would you ever start a sentence with "however" or "therefore"?

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Mike C

So we are, effectively, in agreement - in rare cases, they are justified. Yes?

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