Mechanics Question - Page 2 - Writers Forum

Non Serviam · 05-25-2006, 04:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

No offense, but if a langauge-element exists, there's a proper way to use it.

Yup. Semicolons and the passive voice, for example, are both useful in legal correspondence. That doesn't mean they have a place in creative fiction, though.

Having said that, there are certainly circumstances where I would use a semicolon or a passive voice phrase in fiction.

Cherryh's law: No rule should be followed over a cliff.

Anarkos · 05-25-2006, 07:21 AM

So, aside from simple repetition and appeals to authority, why exactly should I not use the humble semi-colon in fiction? Because it might confuse people who were asleep during basic English grammar at school and don't know what it means?

EDIT: And passive voice is, in my view, more appropriate in fiction than most technical writing. In most technical writing, people use it simply to sound learned, pompous and plain wordy. As an intentional device in fiction - especially in dialogue, for example - it can convey quite a lot. If a character (or narrator) speaks in passive voice, then the reader can infer certain things about their character or tone. It can slow and break up the narrative elsewhere etc etc. Of course, like most rules, the rule "don't use passive voice" should only be broken if you, one, know the rule, two, know why the rule exists and, three, know exactly why you're breaking it...

Dawnstorm · 05-25-2006, 09:04 AM

Some people like semi-colons, some don't. (v1:Some people like semi-colons; some people don't.) (v2:Some people like semi-colons. Some people don't.) (v3:Some people like semi-colons, some people don't.) [My own preference is for the original. I do prefer v1 over v2, though. I even prefer v3 over v2. Come to think of it, I prefer v3 over v1, too.]

I must say that in Kamisama's sentence I don't see any reason for a semi-colon. The logical relation between the sentences is pretty clear without it.

***

By the way, I will not be held responsible for side-tracking a semi-colon thread with discussions about passive voice.

Bika · 05-25-2006, 10:25 AM

thank you for clarifying for me

Seems to me that there's a simple rule that applies to semi-colons...

each to their own

Mike C · 05-25-2006, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anarkos

So, aside from simple repetition and appeals to authority, why exactly should I not use the humble semi-colon in fiction? Because it might confuse people who were asleep during basic English grammar at school and don't know what it means?

Use it or not, as you wish. But be 110% sure you're using it correctly. I'd venture that 75% of people don't.

And yes, I could have used a semi-colon above, but chose not to.

ghent96 · 05-25-2006, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike C

Use it or not, as you wish. But be 110% sure you're using it correctly. I'd venture that 75% of people don't.

And yes, I could have used a semi-colon above, but chose not to.

"Use it, or not, as you wish, but be 110% sure you're using it correctly."

Your sentence is now corrected

Some people claim there is no use for a semi-colon; however, all discernible evidence and current teaching point to the opposite. There are definite uses for the semi-colon; such uses most people could agree upon. You might want to make a long, very detailed list; seperate some unusual, perhaps complex, compound sentences; or just link together two juxtaposed, complete sentences with the same thought.

Mike C · 05-25-2006, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghent96

Your sentence is now corrected

Don't presume. Had I wanted the sentence to read that way, I would have written it that way.

Non Serviam · 05-25-2006, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghent96

Your sentence is now corrupted

Fixed it for you.

mammamaia · 05-25-2006, 07:35 PM

looks like we're standing alone against the crowd here, mike... all for one and one for all, mate!

stubbornly steadfast hugs, maia

cbrmale · 05-25-2006, 08:06 PM

Maia,
You have me on your side as well. While I will admit to sometimes using them, it would only be two or three in a novel-length work. And I do know the rules behind semi-colon useage, so I know I am doing it right when I do it.

cbrmale · 05-25-2006, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anarkos

So, aside from simple repetition and appeals to authority, why exactly should I not use the humble semi-colon in fiction? Because it might confuse people who were asleep during basic English grammar at school and don't know what it means?

EDIT: And passive voice is, in my view, more appropriate in fiction than most technical writing. In most technical writing, people use it simply to sound learned, pompous and plain wordy. As an intentional device in fiction - especially in dialogue, for example - it can convey quite a lot. If a character (or narrator) speaks in passive voice, then the reader can infer certain things about their character or tone. It can slow and break up the narrative elsewhere etc etc. Of course, like most rules, the rule "don't use passive voice" should only be broken if you, one, know the rule, two, know why the rule exists and, three, know exactly why you're breaking it...

A large part of my 'real' job is technical writing, and I never use semi-colons. I often use passive voice, but not to make it sound learned or pompous. It is more subtle, imparting knowledge and / or instructions in a 'distanced' manner which makes the reader less psychologically defensive. 'Active' writing in a technical sense comes across as lecturing, which isn't what you want given that some technical writing goes through many workshops, working parties and committees before it is approved and published. A good example of this is a computer system specification which will evolve over many iterations.

If I write something that is one draft only and must be followed to the letter (say an ISO Procedure manual), then it will be very active in tone.

You are quite correct when you refer to using passive voice and breaking other fiction rules in dialogue. If authors aren't aware that the rules associated with the 'narrative' part of fiction can and should be broken when writing dialogue, then this is a good opportunity to emphasise this point.

mammamaia · 05-25-2006, 09:50 PM

welcome to the club, cb!... new members always happily admitted... hugs, m

Dawnstorm · 05-26-2006, 04:20 AM

All I'm really saying is: learn to use the semi-colon before you decide you don't like it.

As a result of this thread I went through my own work-in-progress, and was surprised and horrified at how many semi-colons I had in there. I threw out dozens and kept two (one of which I put on the watchlist).

I'm not really a fan of using the semi-colon either (although - surprisingly - it does seem to be a bad habit of mine).

Mike C · 05-26-2006, 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cbrmale

You are quite correct when you refer to using passive voice and breaking other fiction rules in dialogue. If authors aren't aware that the rules associated with the 'narrative' part of fiction can and should be broken when writing dialogue, then this is a good opportunity to emphasise this point.

I'm all in favour of breaking rules, but to break them you first have to know them inside out and be intimately acquainted with all their funny little ways. To draw a parallel, Picasso was an extremely talented classical artist; he learned the craft before he started breaking rules.

Most people break the rules by accident, not in a conscious effort to achieve a desired effect.

Anarkos · 05-26-2006, 08:10 AM

I know how to use semi-colons. I am 100% sure of that; the extra 10% is redundant, unnecessary and plain silly.

For the people who say they have no place in ficition: Why not? I've seen a lot of repetition and variation around this theme, but I can't see any reasons. Simply saying something over and over again isn't exactly persuasive. If it's best to avoid them...why?

Cbr - My rant there about silly pompous wordiness...we-ell, to be honest, that was simple bitterness. I'm a law student, and I had a test this evening, so I have spent quite a lot of time reading case judgements of late, and have slowly developed a very, very cynical view of the judiciary, which is pretty much what I was mocking/ranting about.