problem with length - Writers Forum

justinF · 11-29-2005, 04:37 PM

Hello. I'm a beginning writer and I find it extremely hard to write a large quantity. I don't believe I've ever gotten past 5,000 words. I think that I have decent skill in writing, but i can never make my stories long, I have a bad habit of being short and to the point. I'd love some advice on how you novelists get 40,000 to 50,00 words, it boggles my mind. As of write now I am trying to write a novel and I've only written about 2,000 words. Thank you for your time.

TimK · 11-29-2005, 05:06 PM

Justin, what happens after you get to 2,000 words? Are those 2,000 a complete story? Or are they only the first chapter? Do you get hung up building in complexity? Looking for the next plot point? Rewriting the first chapter? Do you just run out of steam?

-TimK

justinF · 11-29-2005, 06:29 PM

Tim, my 2,000 words are nowhere near a complete story, they are about the first 3 chapters. Sometimes, yes, I run out of steam, and that causes me to drift into thinking about the next plot point, but I feel I don't have enough substance on which to write 50,000 words. I feel I have a good story, I just can't seem to make it long without repeating my vocabulary a thousand times and making the story boring. I think I do need a deeper level of complexity, and that is a big problem. But I as well think that it stems from my lack of things to say. maybe I'm trying too hard, I don't know. I would, however, be interested in how you , or anyone else out there, make your stories a true novel's length. Thank you again Tim, you've given me a little time to reflect upon those questions that I would've never asked myself.

Kimahri · 11-29-2005, 06:38 PM

Um I don't really know Justin. I am currently writing my first novel and right now it is over 400 pages long. I am not sure why you have a hard time with length and the only question I have I guess is have you spent enough time preparing the story? Have you developed the characters, the world they live in and the struggles they must go through to grow? Maybe you just have a knack for writing short stories, which is something that I know I would have somewhat of a hard time doing. I think TimK is going in the right direction of helping you though. I would definitely say that maybe before you start writing the story to spend a lot of time developing your characters, the world, the struggles they go through, and also the themes of the story. Remember that this is a world you are creating and just as the world we live in it has different layers such as life, beliefs, emotions, and growth as living things that make us who we are. If you incorporate all these things in your story then I believe you can have more than 2,000 words. Hope that helps in some way.

kimahri

Phantom Rose · 11-29-2005, 06:53 PM

I'm not a published novelist, so I'm not sure what they're "trick" is... However, I can say what I do - first, I time up a rough description of events, and later go back and add in a lot more details. You could try revising and doing that.

justinF · 11-29-2005, 07:17 PM

Thank you guys. I have a horrible habit of not planning out my stories before I write them (I know, shame on me.) But most of the stories I write are short stories so that works. I really do think now that i should outline the plot and characters before hand. I usually don't do that because it's so boooring, oh well. We all have to do things we don't like eh? Thanks you guys again, I'm now off to work on my story.

krazyklassykat · 11-29-2005, 11:20 PM

Hmm... I have a similar problem. See, I have NO problem elaborating, that's for sure, but my stories are short-lived. You say you worry about repeating vocabulary? Try a thesaurus. Synonyms work wonders.

I've found dictionary.com's one really useful; you'd be amazed at all the different words you can use to say the same things. Also, be conscious of sentence structure. I've noticed that I use the same structure a lot. Of course, I'm a lot more conscious of it in my own writing, as will happen, so don't worry about it too much -- often something that just doesn't seem right to you will sound perfectly natural to another reader.
Well, just try some synonyms, and really work those adjectives.

Oh... I hate to ask, but... if you've happened to read Sophocle's Antigone I really need some help on a writing assignment for it... well, check it out if you think you can help! Thanks.

BauB · 11-30-2005, 03:50 AM

I say: don't worry about length. When you have an idea that warrants a novel, you should have no trouble putting into 50,000 words or whatever. Trying to stretch a good story just to create a novel is risking ruination. There's nothing wrong with writing novellas or novellettes. I also love the short story.

Eventually, you'll have an idea that will translate easily into a novel, so keep practicing your style with short stories and your first stroke of genius will be that much more pleasing to read.

Goodluck!

TimK · 11-30-2005, 12:27 PM

Hi, Justin. Firstly, I strongly recommend Michael A. Stackpole's podcast series and newsletter, The Secrets http://www.stormwolf.com/thesecrets/podcasts/. See especially the Special Edition episodes numbers 5 through 9.

I myself have not finished my first novel, either. I always get hung up at some plot point or another. So lately I've been trying a depth-first writing approach, a walking skeleton. I've written the whole story from beginning to end, like an outline. It's lacking a lot of detail, but it does have all the major pieces, and it reads like a real story, though not a publishable one. Now I'm adding in more and more detail. This method only works with a word processor, not with pen and paper or with a typewriter. I've used it successfully writing short stories. It's also a method we commonly use to design complex software systems. (By day, I'm a software engineer.)

Michael Stackpole recommends first finishing your 100,000 word novel. (Yes, 100 K words, not 50.) Keep writing until you reach the end of the story. Then go back and edit. Don't get hung up editing the first chapter. Rather, wait until the whole story is in place before you do any editing.

There are also standard ways to build in complexity. For example, instead of describing a character's personality, demonstrate that personality through a mini-story, a smaller conflict that shows the reader what the character is like. Try to have multiple story arcs and sub-plots that are interwoven and feed off each other. And have deeper story arcs depend on the shallower ones. Also, remember that the readers will want to see the characters develop, through internal conflict. These are deeper story arcs that will frequently depend on the external conflicts in the story.

For a 100,000-word novel, Michael Stackpole advises 3 main characters, each of which will undergo some character transformation and use about 30,000 words for his story.

-TimK

Sand · 11-30-2005, 01:36 PM

That sounds very similar to an approach I tried with what I hope will be my novel. It's called the Snowflake Process and you can find a complete description of it at http://www.rsingermanson.com/html/the_snowflake.html.

My snowflake isn't as detailed as he's suggesting, but it certainly helped me organize my thoughts and decide what elements and events I wanted to include. I've started writing the story (if fact, Justin, you commented on it - thank you) but will continue to go back to the snowflake to fill it in as I go.

It's an interesting way of approaching the writing of a novel.

justinF · 11-30-2005, 03:33 PM

thank you guys so much. i will look into all of the advice you guys have given. it has helped immensley. thank you again. cheers.

TimK · 11-30-2005, 06:48 PM

Hi, Sand. Yeah, I've read that page on the snowflake method. Excellent stuff. It is essentially the same, just a different metaphor. What I've been doing with my writing is what Extreme Programming does to software development. ("Extreme Writing"? Maybe.) It goes something like this:

Think of the story as numerous small aspects or slices, like a salami, each of which I can hold in my mind at once. Maybe the overall story arc would be one slice. Setting may be another. Character traits may be others.
Pick the most important slice to work on next.
Now, write that slice into the story, using the simplest and most direct means available.
After each slice, assure that you still have a complete, coherent story. Very quickly, and at every point thereafter, you should have a publishable manuscript, progressing from short story, through novella, to novel.

As I said, I've used this method writing short stories. Using it, they come out fast and good and consistent throughout. The thing I don't know is whether it can scale to 100,000 words. In particular, keeping a publishable manuscript past 20,000 or so words may be difficult, as I may spend most of my time rereading and editing, and very little adding new slices of story.

-TimK

Hoss · 11-30-2005, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimK

Hi, Justin. Firstly, I strongly recommend Michael A. Stackpole's podcast series and newsletter, The Secrets http://www.stormwolf.com/thesecrets/podcasts/. See especially the Special Edition episodes numbers 5 through 9.

-TimK

Thanks a bunch for that link Tim. I just listened to all of those and he really supplied me with some useful information to form my outline.

-Hoss

TimK · 12-01-2005, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hoss

Thanks a bunch for that link Tim. I just listened to all of those and he really supplied me with some useful information to form my outline.

Excellent! Glad it helped out.

-TimK