Maybe it's me... - Writers Forum

BrummysBride · 06-17-2005, 12:19 AM

...but it seems like friends with good intentions don't always seem to "get it" when they attempt to critique my work.

Case in point: I have a wonderful friend -- a grammarian of sorts -- who just critiqued my work. Now, I know "The Rules" as well as the next girl but I break them (just a little) on purpose. My sweet friend read my article and then told me what I needed to do in order to "clean it up."

None of the advice she offered was technically incorrect BUT, if I made the changes she recommended, my article would be as interesting as unflavored oatmeal. blechhh!

Have any of you had similar experiences? If so, how did you deal with it?

(of course, a tiny part of me wonders if I'm going about this business of writing the wrong way... rebel! rule breaker!

)

Talia_Brie · 06-17-2005, 01:15 AM

I have some associates who are grammer nazis. I like passing my work past them because I know they're goig to see an enormous number of mistakes that I would have ignored otherwise.

Now, when you get a full page of writing that has been crossed through and 'corrected' (well, first I have a bit of a screaming tantrum, but enough about me) it's a little discouraging. It's easy to get your back up and cur off your nose to spite your face.

But once I get over that I have a look at the suggestions and decide which of them I want to employ. Generally its not all of them, but usually a lot of them.

What I hate more is when I hand over something to read and my friend reads it, hands it back and says, "That was really good". That kind of 'advice' is completely useless to me.

journyman161 · 06-17-2005, 01:21 AM

I had a nice little piece about alien humans who'd colonised a planet, & thought someone with a degree in Eng Lit would be a handy critique. Wrong, wrong wrong...

Apart from cutting the 'flavour' out of all my sentences, correcting corect spelling & missing incorrect ones, I got comments like, (for a statement 'Eden, which meant Home in the old tongue) got a 'No it doesn't!' & a big red line through 2 paras that dealt with the fictitious history of this non-earth people.

My advice, get critiques from people who may actually have experience with life and/or your subject matter; stay away from pure academics.

blademasterzzz · 06-17-2005, 01:25 AM

Or do it when you are writing dry, boring articles or manuals.

Ralizah · 06-17-2005, 01:32 AM

I generally critique my own work. I take up the critical eye of a professional and butcher my own work to make it better.

I'm also one of those 'grammar nazis.'

BrummysBride · 06-17-2005, 03:10 AM

I lean toward the grammar nazi side of the fence, too. However, I think some well meaning people have a deep need for the cookie cutter format and that's what I was getting at.

Very little bores me to tears more quickly than when I read an essay that goes: "First I experienced X, which is where I learned 123. Then I tried Y, which led me to 456. Finally, I gave Z a go and, consequently learned 789. I loved learning 123, 456, and 789 by experiencing X, Y, and Z!"

*yawn*

I did enough of that with my technical writing. Don't get me wrong; obviously chronology has its place in writing! But when I've got a very short, creative piece (1,500 words or less), I focus more on drawing the reader into the sensory, rather than taking a "just the facts, ma'am" approach.

I'm enjoying everyone's input -- keep it coming!

RebelGoddess · 06-17-2005, 12:40 PM

Correst me if I'm wrong, but it sound slike you're writing an article, the kind for a newspaper or a magazine.

It sucks, but most articles are supposed to be on te blander side.

I took a journalism class last eyar and my teacher (who is incredibly smart-one of my favorites form the past 13 years) had some really good adivce.

He said: "So, class. Let's discuss options on how to quote someone. What are some other ways to say 'said'?"

The answer: "Said, said, and said."

I'm not sure if that's what your friend's corrections did, but his comment was mainly to show us that articles are factual.

We're not trying to impress the reader, though we are trying to engage them.

But on the other hand, it's your article: spin it how you'd like!

Racheal

James T Palmer · 06-17-2005, 12:54 PM

The biggest problem, I find, is that friends are too nice.

I like praise as much as the next guy, but I need a brutal, harsh criticism every once in a while, too. Praise of the good and criticism of the bad are just as important as each other, in my opinion.

BrummysBride · 06-17-2005, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RebelGoddess

Correst me if I'm wrong, but it sound slike you're writing an article, the kind for a newspaper or a magazine.

It sucks, but most articles are supposed to be on te blander side.

*grin* In this particular case, I had written a personal essay for a contest. Our task was to invoke feelings of nostalgia by sharing personal childhood experiences. My childhood was extremely unusual and putting it in an orderly "a, b, c" format takes something vital away from its flavor.

LOL -- I know my weaknesses; when it comes to short, short pieces, structure ain't one of 'em! I gain much more when someone helps me pare down my overuseage of conjunctions (and! and! but! but! I am the QUEEN of run-on sentences!) or when somebody grabs a megaphone and orders me to step away from the manuscript before I rewrite it to death!

p.s. I was just hoping to find other writers with well-meaning friends who know the rules of writing but can't wrap their minds around anything that's a little "outside the box."

Anarkos · 06-17-2005, 06:35 PM

Y'know, without actually seeing the piece in question, we can't really make any fair comment. For all I know, you could've written a piece that tastefully bent grammatical rules for rhetorical effect...

...or, of course, you could have written an entirely terrible ungrammatical piece. I've critiqued people who wrote utter shite before, and been told that I didn't get it and was constraining myself unduly to "the rules". My reply was, as you can imagine, not polite.

Yes, there is a time to use sentence fragments and passive voice and all those other things people tell you are bad, but, one, you have to know the rule to break it, and, two, you have to do so in moderation.

BrummysBride · 06-26-2005, 03:55 PM

Nice li'l update:

I waited to hear the "--and I also wanted to tell you how I was absolutely captivated by your story" from my friend who critiqued my article. Okay, so I wasn't really expecting to hear it but, you know... I'm human and a little ego stroking goes a long way with me.

Surprise, surprise! A couple of days later, the friend said, "You know, BrummysBride, the main reason I'd like to see you order your story is because you've got such a fascinating story to tell and, frankly, I want it all -- not just the short version!"

Well, well, well. Now THAT was a nice surprise!

~smile~

Destany · 06-26-2005, 04:47 PM

I try to use grammatically correct language when I can, I'm pretty strict about it, but not a total stickler. I prefer to use a lot of imagery when I write, rather than trying to sound off the cuff. But I do use that technique as well, but always with a purpose, to show a sense of attitude and I make it look intentional. I also use it sparingly. I think if you make something look intentional and don't over use it, people will excuse it. It could be, some people are under the impression that you simply don't know. Many writers, especially editors feel that lack of proper grammer shows immaturity and that doesn't hold much authority when it comes to making a story believable. Some ideas we find in fiction are so far out there, the only way the reader is going to buy it is if the author commands authority and you believe it because they said so. That's kind of hard to do if the writer is too casual.
I also have the problem of freinds who are too easy on my work. I sent my prologue to a freind who sent it back with misspellings and a few wordy sentences highlighted in read, but when I did the third revision I found very poor sentence structure and I was tripping over my words a lot. I find it easiest to edit my own, and have others there to catch the things I miss.

Verago · 06-26-2005, 05:01 PM

I understand...People keep telling me that if I want to be a good writer, I should take courses, and I think to myself, "Why? So they can make my writing all proper? So I can become like -them-? No. I'd rather be a bad, improper writer than a good, proper writer any day."

suzakugaiden · 06-26-2005, 05:31 PM

I think I'm sort of a grammar Nazi.

Anyway, you get into an issue of intent. If you intentionally mess around with grammar, usually it's for a purpose. Usually you can tell if someone is intentionally mixing tenses or butchering sentence syntax, and usually it seems okay. If you screw up and don't know you're screwing up it'll sound like you screwed up.

Quote:

Very little bores me to tears more quickly than when I read an essay that goes: "First I experienced X, which is where I learned 123. Then I tried Y, which led me to 456. Finally, I gave Z a go and, consequently learned 789. I loved learning 123, 456, and 789 by experiencing X, Y, and Z!"

I've noticed a lot of fiction like this actually. It makes it sound rather dry.

And uh, as you said. The "just the facts ma'am" approach is for technical writing and text books. It's not for storytelling.

"The answer: "Said, said, and said.""

That also applies to fiction. The main reason? '"I am a cookie!" Jacked blurted' is telling and not showing. The other reason is that 'said' is sort of an invisible word, and it's more like an "interface verb" to the quote; inobtrusive and flowy.

"I am the QUEEN of run-on sentences!"

The difference between the run-on sentence and the master sentence is... uh... is there a difference?

"No. I'd rather be a bad, improper writer than a good, proper writer any day."

I feel the same way, I guess. In a way it's kind of arrogant, but I guess it's also the sort of mentality you need to be an actual artist.

Hodge · 06-26-2005, 05:33 PM

If you're writing an academic paper, then proper grammar and punctuation is a must. If you're writing a piece of fiction, then you can break all the rules (but you must do it well and have a reason for it).