Flashbacks and Multiple POVs??? - Writers Forum

HollyG3 · 07-29-2004, 01:44 AM

I edited this to say POV, rather than perspective. Being anal.

Hi,

I'm having a hard time with keeping one POV. Here's the situation...

The story will be told mainly from the POV of the son, but in the first chapter he is catatonic and his father is remembering the events that put him in the hospital.

How do we flash back on the incident and keep the story still in one POV? Or is that not possible in this case? Should we just make the first chapter be the father's POV? Or just try to stay out of his thoughts?

And is it really so terrible to change POVs if it's done clearly? I was told by a writing teacher that it's taboo to have more than one POV in a chapter, but I know that some writers have multiples (though not always done well).

And I'd love some tips on writing a flashback.

Thanks for any advice!

Chris · 07-29-2004, 03:53 AM

I think my biggest problem with constant changes of perspective, is that the writer often forgets who is telling the story. Who should we follow and root for? If we're following the son then you switch to the father, it has to be for a good, significant reason.

That being said, I also think changing of perspectives can help freshen the story, provide different opinions on themes, characters etc. But like you said, it has to be done well. I don't know anything about your story to really make any comments, but if you do have the father control the first chapter, will we see him again? He's going to be the first character the readers will get involved with (presumably), so you could chop and change between father and son.

Changing perspectives in one chapter is dependant on how you execute it. You should just write it, read it and see if it flows. If you're not sure, post it on these forums or show it to fellow writers.

I think flashbacks generally work best in the stream of consciousness mode. You know, when you dwell deep into a character's thoughts whose memory is triggered by things he/she sees or whatever. I think it lends a nice flow and will seem less fractured. So yeah, it might be better if you tell the incident through the eyes of the father. But like I said, I don't know your story so you should decide what works best.

HollyG3 · 07-29-2004, 02:23 PM

A little about the story: Crime scene. Serial killer is being gunned down. The son is psychically connected to him at the time. When the killer drops so does the son. He's now catatonic. Hiding inside himself. Ooh, maybe we could hear his thoughts as he's hiding!!! Maybe he's outside his body and is seeing his father and knows that his father is re-living the incident, so we're still in his POV!!! It's amazing how I can answer my own questions once I start writing them down. LOL!

I also realize that if we're starting the story with the father, we would really need to focus on him a lot more. It's all about a father/son relationship anyway, so I would love to be able to switch POVs.

On the other hand, is there a way to start the story with the flashback, but it's really not a flashback...it just becomes the flashback? Confused? If we start the story at the actual crime scene and we're in the son's POV, can it switch at some point and become a flashback that the father is re-living? Or should we just have the crime scene in the son's POV then jump to the hospital scene? If this ever gets made into a movie, I will write the script as the father having a flashback. But in novel form, what do you think works better? And did that make sense? I tend to ramble. Sorry. =P

sully474 · 07-29-2004, 03:10 PM

I think that you should give a seperate chapter for the part with the fathers POV. I once read a book where every chapter was told by somebody else, and it seemed to work really well.

gabriella · 07-29-2004, 05:34 PM

I've read two books (can't remember the name of the author) where there were a group of kids, and every chapter went from one kid to the next and back again.

Generally, I stay away from first-person books, because I hate them with a passion, so that's only first hand advice I can give you.

But I think you're insane to attempt two povs in one chapter, the main reason being that the reader doesn't have time to listen to the story being told twice, or to miss out on something the character could have felt. Remember that every scene has something important - if you have the theft through the eyes of the son, and then have the catching of the thief through the eyes of the father, than we're going to want to know what the hell the son was thinking during that time.

Pick a pov, write it as the Prologue and then begin chapter one with the son and keep it at the son. If you're going to be alternating, name your chapters after the pov you're using, and make sure that you're not repeating the same thing over, and if the son says something than the father can't have a flashback to that scene, otherwise rewrite it differently, and for the love of God, give the reader some more information so that WE'RE not remembering it - maybe the father saw something happen that the son didn't. DO NOT have a flashback of something that happened in the SAME BOOK - mention it, but don't have a FLASHBACK, with the only exception that the father saw things COMPLETELY differently.

An example of that would be a theft. The son meets the criminal, there's the scene, and then the father has another flashback of it, only it starts earlier to the "criminal" who was actually framed, and the father saw him get framed. Or, maybe the son saw the criminal fire the gun, but the father saw that the gun wasn't actually supposed to be loaded, or that it was an accident, yadda yadda.

HollyG3 · 07-29-2004, 05:53 PM

I was cracking up over your post! Have you actually read something where there was a flashback to something that had already been written in the story??? Ugh! It reminds me of my soap. I hate when they play a scene over again that they had shown the day before! But I suppose some viewers might need to be caught up if they missed the day before. Still, it annoys me!!!

I think I have a better understanding of how to approach the story, though. We'll probably do separate chapters to change the POV. I do like the idea of a prologue, though. Any suggestions on going from the shootout to the hospital scene? Should the prologue be the flashback plus the hospital scene? Or should the prologue just be the shootout? I'm thinking it should be the flashback and the hospital scene together because it sets up the whole story. Are there general rules for prologues? I'll search this site, but if you have a response, please leave it here.

Thanks!

moonandsun · 07-29-2004, 06:58 PM

Hmmm. I think so, though it tends to be pointless and not needed at times. Some writers opt to take the "easy way out" and just switch POV's but sometimes it works really brilliantly. I've always wanted to tell an entire story in a charecter's point of view, then have the main charecter dies and the last chapter is the furneral or aftermath in someone else's POV. I always wanted to kill off the main charecter, and continue the story. Hmmm, maybe I'm just really odd.

Wyndham · 07-29-2004, 06:59 PM

I think it's very hard to present a lot of POVs in one story without it coming off as amateur, though just two is better than some things I've read where the POV of everyone including the waitress who just passes the table are given.

If you want to tell the backstory of how the son got where he is, one way is to just start with the event. Just tell it as a third person, but without letting us know what's going on inside anyone's head. I think it could be very intriguing just to see this unfold. The serial killer is gunned down and another, separate person falls into a catatonic state––but why. That would make me wonder and want to read more.

Then switch to the POV of the son, only let it take a while to figure out that he's the one telling the story. Are the father and son close? Maybe he can read his father's expressions and tell his thoughts.

Just an idea. But telling too much up front is a sure way to get readers to put the book down.

gabriella · 07-29-2004, 08:40 PM

...okay, now I understand what you're trying to do.

A prologue is ONE chapter that sets up the story, but isn't really the story.

So, since it's one chapter, only use ONE pov, so: either get rid of the shootout, or get rid of the hospital scene, or have the father reiterating what the police told him, or have the father included in the shootout.

But all the same I really think you should use it in a prologue.

By the way, I haven't read anything where there was a full-frontal flashback in the same book that I can remember, unless it was a phrase or two. Thank God, because it's annoying enough in my soaps, lol.

Talia_Brie · 07-29-2004, 09:02 PM

My advice would be to not have the father remember the events. Tell the events that led to the son being in hospital in a prologue, either from the son's POV or from an omniscient POV. I tend to not like seeing people remember things, I don't know why.

Another reason why I would suggest this is that if the son is comatose, then the events that led to that are probably very dramatic. I think you would like the reader to get as close to that as possible.

HollyG3 · 07-30-2004, 02:41 PM

Your comments were all very helpful, btw!

Now I have another question about POV. The hospital scene will now be in the son's POV. He is catatonic, but actually somewhat aware of what's going on around him. He can sense things, but not hear actual words being said. So...is it possible to show a conversation between two people in his hospital room??? If the son can't understand what they're saying, should the reader NOT be able to, either? Or is it okay because it's an action that the son would be able to see and hear if he was conscious? There will be an inner monologue throughout the scene of the son trying to figure out what's going on. But the reader will hear the actual conversation. Can we do that? Or is that a no-no.

Writing POV is hard!!!!

Bluenoseuk · 07-31-2004, 12:47 PM

If you want to look at POV's then look no further than THE SHINING By stephen KING. There are three POV's in that story: Danny (Their son) Wendy (Mother) and Jack (Father). I beleive it is best to do one point of view per chapter, although there is no rule to say you can't have more than one POV per chapter. A good example in the shining, is when in one chapter is from the point of view of Jack, who is locked outside the bedroom by Wendy. Its taken from his point of view in this chapter, and his anger, suspicions etc etc. The following chapter is taken from Wendy's perspective on the other side of the bedroom door. It's a good effect, it adds depth and it makes a book more interesting. In my opinion its best to have a book with a varied points of views. Another example is the THE STAND by Stephen King when there are a lot of POV's. I think I once went onto his site and counted over 200 hundred characters in that book. Obviously, only a handful are used and the others are just filler charcters are a books version of EXTRA'S. I encourgae you to use a range of POV's. Its a great way to write a book.

Wyndham · 07-31-2004, 03:09 PM

Yes I think you can show what is going on in the room even if the son doesn't understand it. In fact, I think it would take an extremely talented writer (granted you may be one, I've never read your stuff) to do otherwise. William Faulkner told a story from the point of view of a mentally retarded man, I can't remember which book it was. I liked it, but a lot of people hate it and say it's way too confusing because the narrator doesn't understand things and relates them in bits and pieces only as he experienced them.

You could try showing what's actually happening in the third person and what the son is thinking and hearing in the first person. That would make it clear.

Like Talia, I always think it's hokey when someone tells you the background in a story by remembering it. In reality memory doesn't work that way. People don't sit down and remember a whole event from start to finish.

HollyG3 · 08-01-2004, 02:39 AM

I think we can do the scene in the son's POV with the action between the other characters in his room. What my partner had done was to show the conversation between two characters and in itallics show what the son was thinking--his inner monologue. He knows the people in the room and can sense they are upset but their words are like a buzzing in his ears.

Also, we started with a prologue showing the action of the shootout in the POV of the suspect, ending with the collapse of the son 50 miles away (so the readers go "HUH?"). In the first chapter is the son's memory of that same scene (told in a completely different way) and what he felt while connected to the suspect, how he was the suspect, what it was like to die.

And I like the idea of each chapter having a different POV. I'll have to check out The Shining again. I read it years ago and loved it!

Thanks so much, you guys!!!

Gladiator_008 · 08-08-2004, 10:22 PM

I used different perspectives in one of my books, and it worked really well, I found, with the chapter change. But, I think you should go for the way you have it, because it's the way you want it to be and it would work best the way you want it.

Perspective changes and different POV's add to the realism of the story because it gives characters more feel and adds to their depth if you get to see it from what they see, and more character development means your book will stand taller and get people tell others to read it because of the way it builds up people.