Spudley

This is an open topic to point out the most common writing mistakes, and if applicable suggest ways to avoid them.

Please don't use this topic to complain about people's writing; the idea here is to help out inexperienced writers, by giving them a checklist of sorts that they can use to improve their writing.

(if you must complain, you can join in with the previous version of this thread which is now in the lounge, that veered off topic when people started doing exactly that - click here to read it)

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Nazareth

Spudley- after a few days or so, can we compile all the tips into one post near the top or something? Instead of searching through 30 or so posts?

Geez I just noticed I got your name wrong- sorry- corrected it

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First contribution:

There are two different kind of breaks, one where the speaker trails off and would be three... (elipses) and one that totally changes topics, and would be two dashes--:

For instance:

John said, "Look man, I'm telling you I didn't... Hey, gimme that gun before you go and shoot yourse--" Blam!

John's head hit the cement pillar behind him, his legs fell out from under him, and he tumbled to the ground. Billy stared at the hole in John's chest for a second, and covered his mouth with his hand -- he was going to be sick.

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Credit goes to Oz for pointing out me mistakes in his post below- I've edditted this post to reflect the corrections

Spudley

[ot:f892aadf14]Yes, that might be a good idea... we'll see how it goes. [/ot:f892aadf14]

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regina_verbae

I learned in elementary that listed ideas, nouns, verbs, and so on should be punctuated like this sentence--with a comma before the conjunction.

In recent years, a trend seems to be occuring to remove said comma.

In my personal opinion, this makes for combersome reading, such as:

Doogus scanned the newspaper, ate lunch, hopped in the car and drove hastily to work.

vs.

Doogus scanned the newspaper, ate lunch, hopped in the car, and drove hastily to work.

In version 2.0, it is quite clear that Doogus lived through four distinct events. In the first, "hopped in the car and drove hastily to work" could be construed as a singular event upon first reading. When sentences are constructed like the first, I usually have to read them twice to make sure I'm getting the correct meaning. In Doogus' case, the squabble is hardly marginal. Some sentences, however, can be confusing.

Professional opinions on this subject?

Also, while I'm at it, is there a consensus on how to treat possessive names ending in 's?' Should Doogus' case really be Doogus's case?

Oh, the adventures of grammar...

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Ozmandius

Yes, you always form the possessive singular of nouns by adding 's , regardless of what the final consanent is. Charlse's friend, Burns's poems, etc.

Exceptions are the possessives of ancient proper names ending in -es and -is such as Jesus' and Isis', and intangibles such as for concience' sake and for righteousness' sake.

And you are exactly right in your first example regarding that a series of three or more terms with a single conjunction are seperated by a coma after each term except for the last. ie: red, white, and blue

For a more comprehensive guide to structure and style, I highly recommend Strunk and White's "The Elements of Style", much of which I have directly quoted in this reply. It is a very slim volume at only 85 pages but is one of the best works ever done on the subject. I keep mine next to my computer at all times and reference it frequently. No single book on writing has helped me more.

Oz

Ozmandius

I hate to do this to you Nazareth, but your example is not correct at all. The proper punctuation for that sentence should be: "Look man, I'm telling you I didn't do it. Gimme that gun before you go and shoot yourself." A coma is used for the first pause because it is brief and the conversation continuing. The second needs no break at all since they are seperate sentences.

A more proper example might be: "Look man, I'm telling you I didn't... Why have you got a gun? There ain't no reason for that dude. Now give me that before--." BLAM!

Here a coma is used again for the short pause and an ellipse for where the dialogue trails off and is left unfinished. The dashes denote a sudden interuption of the dialogue, but are only appropriate if the sentence is not completed. When translated to print, the two dashes serve as a marker to let the typesetter know when to put in a single long dash, as is most grammatically accurate.

It should be noted that the two dash rule is a holdover from the typewriter days when a writer could not produce the single long dash in his original manuscript. Today, Microsoft Word and other programs can easily do that for you and render this point nearly moot. I say 'nearly' because I have heard that some editors still insist on the two dashes. But as technology progresses, I imagine that this will become less and less of an issue.

Oz

Nazareth

Hey thanks- No worries, if I'm wrong, I'm wrong- You're right, I see that now- I'll go back and edit that so people won't get confused- thanks

Ozmandius

Oh, I see what you're planning. Turn around and edit it so that I come out looking like the idiot. Is there nothing to which you will not stoop, Nazareth? Is there no basement of moral depravity into which you will not venture? Ye gods man, how can you sleep at night with such things on your conscience?

Of course the upside is that you probably have a bright future in the Republican party.

Okay, yeah. I'm bored and rambling. But I thought it was fun.

Oz

Nazareth

LOL- I am dead tired- I was goign to give ya the credit (Which I did in the next thread down) But forgot to in this one- will go right back & do that

Ozmandius

Uh, Nazareth. It's still wrong. (sorry) Unless he fell off a cliff and went "Blam" several seconds later, that elipse should be another dash.

So just to reiterate, if you trail off it's an elipse... But if you are interupted, it's a dash--

Oh, and I'm sorry I forgot to comment on this earlier, but both elipses and dashes should be followed by a space. They serve as the punctuation for the sentence in place of a period, exclamation mark, etc. And even though it is an aborted sentence, it is still treated as one structurally.

Sorry, man. I feel like I'm picking on you.

Oz

Nazareth

K now I'm confused- I thought that where he was talking, and all of a sudden the gun accidently goes off, that the conversation would be interupted & therefore need the elipses, no?

Perhaps an explaination that it was the gun going off that would make that correct then? like so? John said, "Look man, I'm telling you I didn't -- Hey, gimme that gun before you go and shoot yourse ..." Blam! The gun went off , and fell from Tim's hand.

And for the space, do you mean putting a space between the elipses and the quote mark at the end like so? : John said, "Look man, I'm telling you I didn't -- Hey, gimme that gun before you go and shoot yourse ... " Blam!

And don't worry, man- correct away- Grammar was always my thorn

Ozmandius

No, I think you just got the two confused so we'll break the scene down.

Two guys standing outside of a bar having an arguement. Dude says, "Look man, I'm telling you I didn't..." But then he sees the gun and trails off without finishing the sentence because he is distracted. He isn't interupted. He just lets his voice fade off. Now he starts a new thought. "Hey, gimme that gun before you go and shoot yourse--" BLAM! The gun interrupts him and prevents him from completing the sentence. It is a sudden and abrubt break in dialogue. Dude cannot complete the sentence because now dude resembles a block of swiss cheese.

But wait! Dude is not yet dead. As he lies there in a pool of his own blood, he reaches up to his friend and whispers in his ear. "Ricky, I lied to you, man. I did sleep with your sister. And you brother. But it was always you that I..." And as dude shuffles off the mortal coil his voice fades away.

If you're still confused, try to think of it in cinematic terms. An elipse... is a fade to black, and a long dash-- is a cut to black. One is slow, the other fast.

The punctuation is also simple. Both elipses and dashes replace the period or what have you. And just as you put a space after the period, then so do you put a space after the elipse or dash. Quotations also work the same. The end quotation mark comes right after, just like in any other sentence. ie: "I don't know Bob. He said he slept with my sister but then mumbled something about... Nah, must have been my imagination. But then again..."

Oz

Kermie04

This is a really good idea, and one that I feel needs to be considered. It could be made a sticky note. I feel that this important because that way people have a reference to go back to when they are stuck and they do not have to sort through pages and hundreds of posts in order to find the info that they need.

With that said, here is my contribution.

there, their, and they're

There means "over there"

The ball was over there, so we walked to pick it up because we wanted to play with it.

Their means "belonging to them"

The was ball belonged to the Johnson's so they put their name on it "

They're is the contraction of they are.

They're my slippers, please do not wear them."

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Nazareth

Eeeek I'm Grammatically dislexic-

Thanks Oz- That cinimatic example helps alot- I see where I got it backerds now.

By the time I get this all straight, we'll have a complete story going on here

Going back to correct my post now

safari invasion

I'm always messing up on that one. Thanks for clearing it up.