Common grammatical errors and how to avoid them. - Page 2 - Writers Forum

Emma LB · 07-04-2004, 05:26 PM

Lay and lie

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Two verbs which are often used incorrectly especially in the past tense.

To lay is a transitive verb, that means this verb needs an object.
e.g. the hen lays eggs, the carpenter lays carpets and so on.
The past of lay is laid.
e.g. the hen laid eggs, the carpenter laid the carpet.

To lie is not a transitive verb, that means there is no object.
e.g. I lie on my bed, he is lying on the floor. The bed and floor are not objects of lie though, because the floor or the bed are not things that he is lying, but the hen in laying eggs.
The past of lie is lay.
e.g. I lay on my bed, he lay on the floor.

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Savannah · 07-06-2004, 01:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by regina_verbae

I learned in elementary that listed ideas, nouns, verbs, and so on should be punctuated like this sentence--with a comma before the conjunction.

In recent years, a trend seems to be occuring to remove said comma.

In my personal opinion, this makes for combersome reading, such as:

Doogus scanned the newspaper, ate lunch, hopped in the car and drove hastily to work.

vs.

Doogus scanned the newspaper, ate lunch, hopped in the car, and drove hastily to work.

In version 2.0, it is quite clear that Doogus lived through four distinct events. In the first, "hopped in the car and drove hastily to work" could be construed as a singular event upon first reading. When sentences are constructed like the first, I usually have to read them twice to make sure I'm getting the correct meaning. In Doogus' case, the squabble is hardly marginal. Some sentences, however, can be confusing.

It's not so much a "trend" as, well, gramatically correct. There needn't be a comma before "and". IE, "apples, bananas and oranges" wouldn't be "apples, bananas, and oranges". A comma is a replacement for the word "and", to avoid being repetative. Therefore, you wouldn't say "Doogus scanned the newspaper and ate lunch and hopped in the car and and drove hastily to work".

This is how I've always been taught, anyway.

Ozmandius · 07-06-2004, 07:13 AM

Then unfortunately you were taught wrong. The coma does indeed go in front of the 'and' as regina_verbae said.

Spudley · 07-06-2004, 07:28 AM

I have to say I was also taught the same as Savanna - that you don't need a final comma before the 'and'.

However, Ozmandius seems somewhat insistent on this point, so I've just spent a bit of time researching it. Opinion actually seems divided on the subject, but several sources state that it is optional.

See point 5 on this link, which is about the most consise example I can point to:

Quote:

5. X,Y, and Z

Put commas between items in a list. When giving a short and simple list of things in a sentence, the last comma (right before the conjunction-usually and or or) is optional, but it is never wrong. If the items in the list are longer and more complicated, you should always place a final comma before the conjunction.

EITHER: You can buy life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness in Los Angeles.
OR: You can buy life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness in Los Angeles.

BUT ALWAYS: A good student listens to his teachers without yawning, reads once in a while, and writes papers before they are due.

So you're both right.

Ozmandius · 07-06-2004, 08:01 AM

I can't really argue with that. There are a number of rules that are ill-defined, misunderstood, or simply have differing camps of opinion. This isn't math afterall where 2 + 2 always equals 4. Language changes over time and old rules fall by the wayside in favor of new ones.

I will verify however that I am not basing my adherence to the 'coma before conjunction' on my own opinion, but rather following the guidelines in Strunk and White's "The Elements of Style", fouth edition. It's considered to be one of the leading authorities on the subject, and so I trust it.

Also it was pointed out to me some years ago that much of what we learned in grade school was incorrect. I also was told that the coma wasn't needed before the final conjunction, but then later was informed that it was. And no offense to the grade school teachers, but when I'm given a differing opinion from a working professional that contrasts with theirs, I tend to side with the pros.

Oz

eleutheromaniac · 07-06-2004, 08:48 AM

When starting dialogue within a paragraph, I've always been taught to use a ';'.

I laughed and said; "bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb bbbbbbbbb". We had such a good time.

Correct or no?

Ozmandius · 07-06-2004, 09:55 AM

Not to my knowledge, no. I think that you might be confusing it with a similar rule. You do use a colon after an independant clause to introduce an illustrative quotation.

Ex: The squalor of the street reminded her of a line from Oscar Wilde: "We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars."

eleutheromaniac · 07-06-2004, 10:14 AM

I knew about that rule, but what do you do in case of dialogue? Keep in mind the above is just an example, there would be a few sentences in the paragraph before, and perhaps after the dialogue.

Or even it was just one sentence

He replied sarcastically; "bbbbbbbbbbbbbbb".

Sometimes you want the reader to know how it was said before the actual dialogue. I've seen it with a comma, with a semi-colon, with a colon and with no punctuation at all, so that's why I'm not 100%. Also, my faith in the english teacher that taught it to me is not 100%.

Ozmandius · 07-06-2004, 10:20 AM

Then in that case it's either a coma or no punctuation at all. Both are correct. But I've never seen the semicolon used for this and don't know why you would need to.

eleutheromaniac · 07-06-2004, 10:25 AM

This might be one of those grammatical grey areas. Since that way seems to be the most common, I think you're right. I'll just use commas, then. Thanks.

eleutheromaniac · 07-06-2004, 10:32 AM

I just thought of something:

His eyes were wide and he could not contain himself any longer; "You are a worthless human being, and I hate you!"

These are two complete statements in one sentence, wouldn't you use the semicolon in this instance?

Ozmandius · 07-06-2004, 10:43 AM

Do you just have an allergy to comas, or something?

eleutheromaniac · 07-06-2004, 10:45 AM

Hey, I thought you said you were a grammar nazi. You getting soft or something? Just trying to be as grammatically correct as possible. Semi-colons need love, too.

Ozmandius · 07-06-2004, 11:51 AM

Yes, semi-colons are underused. But I think that you might be going too far and are trying to over-use them. You asked about a rule and I gave it to you. In fact I quoted directly from Strunk and White when I looked it up. That's it. There is no more information on the subject that I have available to me, most likely because no one has ever thought to use a semi-colon in that way. Hence, it is probably wrong.

eleutheromaniac · 07-06-2004, 01:16 PM

Strunk and White huh? Well I have .... nothing, I, I got nothing. You win. Buuutttt...

If you have two complete statements in one sentence, isn't it proper to use a semi-colon instead of a comma, regardless of dialogue? (I was thinking this is what my teacher meant). I don't know, probably no one would notice if I used a comma, but everyone would notice if I used a semi-colon, since they are so rarely used. I guess that's why people stay away from semi-colons as much as possible. Anything that sounds like some sort of intestinal disorder can't be good.