Do you make correct use of punctuation, especially commas? - Writers Forum

The Backward OX · 07-19-2008, 02:21 AM

If you weren’t capable of consistently using punctuation correctly - particularly commas - how might you go about teaching yourself the right way?

I’m possibly about to become involved in an 'edit-a-novel-as-it-is-being-written' process and believe before I start that I’m going to find an avalanche of punctuation errors, possibly mostly commas both misused and left out. I’d like to tell the writer to make an effort to correct this before I see it, but apart from spending a lifetime reading don’t know what else to suggest as a means of mastering the problem.

Any ideas?

Please accept my thanks in advance.

edropus · 07-19-2008, 02:22 AM

Go to your local bookstore. Buy a rubber stamp with a comma on it. Then meet up with the person, and every time there's a pause in conversation, stamp a comma on their head.

The Backward OX · 07-19-2008, 02:43 AM

There's one in every forum.

HarryG · 07-19-2008, 12:14 PM

The Microsoft Word grammar check isn't perfect, but it's a good starting point.

lin · 07-19-2008, 12:14 PM

Well, not, like, really.

Sam Winchester · 07-19-2008, 12:45 PM

Quote:

The Microsoft Word grammar check isn't perfect, but it's a good starting point.

It's okay, but nothing to write home about. Most of the time it's friggin' wrong.

OX, punctuation is a difficult thing. I know this is probably going to sound like lame advice, but the best way to learn is by reading and studying where other published authors use commas. Pauses in work generally mean there should be a comma used; unless those pauses are slight, then you can get away with it. There's also natural pauses where a reader will read and naturally pause before continuing. Commas can also be omitted from these places. An example would be: A minute later he continued on. It's not wrong to put a comma in after later, but it can be omitted.

lin · 07-19-2008, 01:47 PM

There's a certain amount of this stuff you have to just spring for. Commas/colons/dashes/ellipses is a good place to start.
You study up, and train yourself to do it right.

I'm doing it every day.

HarryG · 07-19-2008, 02:02 PM

I have a friend who is a professional editor and charges a penny per word. His tax returns show that he admits to editing two normal sized (100,000 words) manuscripts per month. He also likes a decent red wine, and gets talkative after around a bottle-and-a-half. After two bottles one lunchtime, he admitted that he uses the MS spelling and grammar check for the first run, before using his own, considerable skills. He works from his home on the Atlantic coast of Europe and is on a two-day week.

Sam Winchester · 07-19-2008, 02:06 PM

The key words here, Harry, are: "before using his own, considerable skills". I wouldn't trust Microsoft Word's grammar checker as far as I could throw it.

virginia · 07-19-2008, 03:36 PM

Ox,

a site I have found helpful in the past (had it Bookmarked) is Learn a Language :: English, Spanish, German, Italian, French, Portuguese, Russian, Chinese, Japanese and other languages :: Learn a Language, find a language course. The link will take you to the section on commas.

You could use it just for reassurance or pass it on to the author concerned.

Good luck with it all.

Virginia

The Backward OX · 07-19-2008, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam Winchester

The key words here, Harry, are: "before using his own, considerable skills". I wouldn't trust Microsoft Word's grammar checker as far as I could throw it.

Hey Sam

A rule of thumb

I make use of, when I employ a string of adjectives or adverbs, is to break them up with commas.

‘Own’ and ‘considerable’ are adjectives. Harry is unsurprisingly, absolutely correct.

(The comma shop might even try selling another one, to follow 'Harry is'. The pause thus created places more emphasis on the fact Harry's old enough, and experienced enough, to know what he's talking about. Just like my last two commas emphasize his experience.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam Winchester

Pauses in work generally mean there should be a comma used; unless those pauses are slight, then you can get away with it. There's also natural pauses where a reader will read and naturally pause before continuing.

Sam, in both Harry's post and in the drivel I've posted here, Harry and I have created our own pauses. Nothing to do with 'natural'. Your quote is meaningless. In fact, I defy you to write a passage that, without the use of a comma, has a 'natural' pause in it. You're back to talking through your arse again.

Ilasir Maroa · 07-19-2008, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Backward OX

Hey Sam

A rule of thumb

I make use of, when I employ a string of adjectives or adverbs, is to break them up with commas.

‘Own’ and ‘considerable’ are adjectives. Harry is unsurprisingly, absolutely correct.

(The comma shop might even try selling another one, to follow 'Harry is'. The pause thus created places more emphasis on the fact Harry's old enough, and experienced enough, to know what he's talking about. Just like my last two commas emphasize his experience.)

Don't be petty, NTO.

The Backward OX · 07-19-2008, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by virginia

Ox,

a site I have found helpful in the past (had it Bookmarked) is Learn a Language :: English, Spanish, German, Italian, French, Portuguese, Russian, Chinese, Japanese and other languages :: Learn a Language, find a language course. The link will take you to the section on commas.

You could use it just for reassurance or pass it on to the author concerned.

Good luck with it all.

Virginia

Yes Virginia, there is a Santa Claus. Thanks.

The Backward OX · 07-19-2008, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ilasir Maroa

Don't be petty, NTO.

It's not petty. It's skill.

Sam Winchester · 07-19-2008, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Backward OX

Hey Sam

A rule of thumb

I make use of, when I employ a string of adjectives or adverbs, is to break them up with commas.

‘Own’ and ‘considerable’ are adjectives. Harry is unsurprisingly, absolutely correct.

(The comma shop might even try selling another one, to follow 'Harry is'. The pause thus created places more emphasis on the fact Harry's old enough, and experienced enough, to know what he's talking about. Just like my last two commas emphasize his experience.)

Sam, in both Harry's post and in the drivel I've posted here, Harry and I have created our own pauses. Nothing to do with 'natural'. Your quote is meaningless. In fact, I defy you to write a passage that, without the use of a comma, has a 'natural' pause in it. You're back to talking through your arse again.

I never said Harry was wrong, OX. I was quoting his words, hence the usage of quotation marks. What I was saying was that the man he's talking about didn't trust the Microsoft Word grammar checker completely, instead choosing to make sure by his own, considerable skills. I never said Harry's use of commas was wrong. They are, in fact, completely correct.

And here's your passage: "There are five small yellow birds on the table". There are natural pauses after five, small, and yellow, but because the adjectives build on one another, separating them with commas is incorrect.

And another one: "College President Jane Doe rescinded the vote today." There is a natural pause after President and before rescinded, but it can be omitted. Not in this case: Jane Doe, the College President, rescinded the vote today. The reason why is this: the first sentence doesn't make sense without a name. Therefore, you cannot use parenthetical - bracketing - commas for the name. Therefore, the sentence is all one. The second sentence still makes sense without the title - the appositive - and therefore the appositive is treated as a parenthetical clause and commas are required.

Watch what happens when you remove the commas from both sentences: "College President rescinded the vote today". Doesn't make sense. "Jane Doe rescinded the vote today". Makes perfect sense. Therefore, the pause in the first sentence is not considered as parenthetical and the commas are omitted from it. But you still pause while reading it, hence the words "natural pause".