Burying Your Novel's Message - Writers Forum

S1E9A8N5 · 07-11-2008, 08:00 AM

I was searching through different articles about writing and I came across Burying Your Novel's Message by Holly Lisle.

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If you just write your theme, what you'll have is a harangue. A message book. Something that will have the readers who agree with your precise point of view nodding along---whether it be "Global warming is going to destroy the planet" or "Global warming is a pile of cow-flops"---and readers who hold any other point of view bouncing your book of the nearest wall and never buying anything else by you, ever.

She suggests burying your theme.

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1) Figure out the key elements of your theme.
2) Plan your hiding place.
3) Create your metaphors.
4) Never even hint at what you're talking about underneath it all.

What do you think of this? The reason I ask is because I want to write a novel about natural cures being suppressed. That's my theme. In my story, vitamins (considered drugs now) are outlawed, disease run ramped, and drugs are the only solution. It's the law. I was going to include factual information about cures for certain types of conditions but I really don't want it to be overwhelming to point that someone just stops reading because they don't believe it. But I'm afraid (as some here have pointed out to me) that it will be too much of a message and I don't want that.

Do I drop this part of my story (natural cures) and just focus on vitamins being outlawed and people not having the choice to choose what's best for them when it comes to conventional medicine and natural?

Thanks

Loulou · 07-11-2008, 08:15 AM

I understand what this writer is suggesting, but you don't have to follow her exact proposals. There is no right or wrong here. Just make sure that your story is interesting. If you have it only about vitamins being outlawed it might not garner much readership. You might have another, bigger, theme, like say a love affair where one of them is dying, and there's a rare magical potion that would help, but it's only in a very dangerous part of the world, and the protagnist has to acquire it somehow, risking great peril, for his only love, who maybe dies anyway... Don't even mention vitamins. If you make the story about the people, the fight, your message is within that. This is a lousy idea, by the way, I was just gabbing any old example. I think what Holly Lisle is suggesting is that a book thats theme is, for example, 'childhood sexual abuse scars you' would not work as well if a girl tells you that, outlining why, as if she goes through an entirely different adult experience (maybe having her home rebuilt after a fire) that parallels what happened to her as a child, and so re-lives it. I'm really not explaining myself all that well.

S1E9A8N5 · 07-11-2008, 08:38 AM

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If you have it only about vitamins being outlawed it might not garner much readership.

It's not. I was just explaining the main theme.

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Don't even mention vitamins. If you make the story about the people, the fight, your message is within that.

I plan on making it a character driven story but why not mention vitamins?

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I think what Holly Lisle is suggesting is that a book thats theme is, for example, 'childhood sexual abuse scars you' would not work as well if a girl tells you that, outlining why, as if she goes through an entirely different adult experience (maybe having her home rebuilt after a fire) that parallels what happened to her as a child, and so re-lives it. I'm really not explaining myself all that well.

This bit is confusing but for the most part, I understand.

JosephB · 07-11-2008, 08:51 AM

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I plan on making it a character driven story but why not mention vitamins?

Only if they are the tasty chewable, variety, shaped like the Flinstones.

alanmt · 07-11-2008, 08:52 AM

what did you decide on the boxer brief issue?

Mike C · 07-11-2008, 08:56 AM

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Originally Posted by S1E9A8N5

I The reason I ask is because I want to write a novel about natural cures being suppressed. That's my theme. In my story, vitamins (considered drugs now) are outlawed, disease run ramped, and drugs are the only solution.

Look at it this way. You aren't writing a novel about natural cures being suppressed, or about vitamins. You're writing a novel about people, and what happens to them, and how that affects them. The story may be, as Loulou suggested, about somebody that has a condition that can only be cured with outlawed vitamins or illegal natural cures, conflict is caused by them not being able to get them, resolution comes with death or cure.

It may be aq 'big picture' story - governments in the pockets of drug companies, for example, but the story should be told on a personal, not global, scale. As a parallel, the movie Erin Brokovitch was about a chemical company poisoning the locals, and a big class action suit to get them compensation, but it's told through the story of one person.

lin · 07-11-2008, 09:30 AM

The advice is bullshit.

Why "figure out your theme" What does that do for you? It's nothing a writer should even THINK about... a critical chimera.

FIND YOUR HIDING PLACE??????????????????????? That's just fucking nuts and you don't me to explain why, do you?

Create your metaphors. Yeah, it's kind of like a puzzle, see.....

Never hint at what you're really talking about. Christ almighty...

It blows my mind people come up with this slop. Then it get's REPEATED

S1E9A8N5 · 07-11-2008, 10:01 AM

Thanks for the advice, Mike C.

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what did you decide on the boxer brief issue?

I'm sticking with boxers until I can find a brand of b. briefs that don't ride up as much. Theres just some days I'd prefer boxers anyway so I'll probably stick to wearing both.

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The advice is bullshit.

I've been told (from members here) that my story could suffer from being too preachy or too much of a "political endeavor" with natural cures (which is understandable) so that's why I brought up the subject. The other things she mentions I don't care for, it's the burying the message that I found interesting. Sorry it angers you...

seigfried007 · 07-11-2008, 11:03 AM

Try jockey shorts--best of both worlds.

I like Holly Lisle's advice for lots of things, but I haven't read the piece from which this advice came so I don't know how it gets explained later.

The premise itself seems flawed and kinda silly. Why the hell would vitamins (which aren't really natural cures anyway) ever be banned when they're so much in use and so crammed down our throats already? What are they going to do--ban oranges and strawberries and blueberries? What about potassium from bananas? Or K from broccoli?

Premise itself seems entirely ridiculous at that point. Without banning all produce and anything that uses citric and ascorbic acid (which is nigh on everything), they can't get rid of vitamins (and even then, some come from sunlight, so...)

Most people who right with a theme in mind choke the readers with it, which is why Holly mentioned 'burying the message'. It's very easy to make a story black and white where your point of view/opinion/dogma shouts out loud and clear and provides the reader no alternatives. Thus, to such a person, 'burying' the message is a good option because they won't really be able to surpress it too much. It'll shine through anyway.

Picking the hiding spot and coming up with metaphors is fine and dandy. Just another way of telling the author that he needs to have some of these things in mind before he starts writing--namely, ways to make the message less gagging. How is he going to hide it? What filters will he stick over the light of his message so that the reader can see it but won't gag or be blinded?

It's like a painting. You want a picture to make the viewer appreciate something--say, the color yellow. You could make the enitre picture nothing but one giant rectagle of yellow. You could make it a mural of predominantly yellow objects. You could also surround your yellow with lots of darker colors or blend it with some orange. Violet, black and dark blue are great for setting off yellow, white and orange, for instance.
Thus, you could have a giant painting with lots of other colors--it could be 98% purple, but the viewer will notice the one yellow smear more than all of the violet. Simply put, that filler, that bunch of colorful antagonism to the goal, works to set off your tiny yellow smear of a goal better than an entire painting that's nothing but mustard on canvas.

Not sure if that made any sense to you, but it was the first example I could think of.

Ilasir Maroa · 07-11-2008, 11:10 AM

Lin likes to react to things. It's what we love about him.

But the basic point of what this article has failed to say is that nobody likes a preacher. So you write about natural cures being supressed as a "theme". This doesn't exaclty sound like just a simple premise. It sounds like you want to make a point. Great. But you shouldn't focus on it, shouldn't shove it down the readers throat; focus on the effects of "vitamins" being banned. The effects on your characters, hopefully. Don't make it too obvious that you're writing a novel to say "Go natural cures!" Mike C makes the point well.

Kast13 · 07-11-2008, 11:19 AM

Just don't come off looking like a stinky hippie and it shouldn't be too bad. Just write the damn thing then go back and change it if it doesn't work.

S1E9A8N5 · 07-11-2008, 12:29 PM

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Why the hell would vitamins (which aren't really natural cures anyway) ever be banned when they're so much in use and so crammed down our throats already?

The natural cure for Scurvy = Limes, oranges - Vitamin C. And now we have to think if Scurvy was the result of a vitamin deficiency, what other diseases are actual deficiency's? Most are. Hard to believe but I don't to get into an argument about this. The mainstream media portrays vitamins/herbs as dangerous/ineffective while promoting drugs (safe, effective, and scientifically proven!) that kill thousands even millions of people each year. And it's no surprise given that the media receives billions of dollars in advertising from drug companies. They can't make money from vitamins, herbs, or natural remedies so they'll do anything to try and discredit them. It really is all about money. Most of the studies they do on vitamins are flawed and are the actual synthetic forms, not the whole food form.

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What are they going to do--ban oranges and strawberries and blueberries? What about potassium from bananas? Or K from broccoli?

Most vitamins on the market are synthetic or extracts of it's natural source. Theres no need to ban oranges, strawberries, blueberries etc. when theres irradiation, radiation, preservatives, pesticides, chemicals, synthetic ingredients etc. All of which destroy the nutritional value of the food and wreak havoc on the immune system. Not to mention the pollution and chemicals that are put into the air that causes many conditions and diseases. And with the way Americans eat these days, it's a no brainier of why disease has plagued this country. The new thing for this age is everything is genetic. When it use to be bacteria, then viruses that causes diseases. Theres only partial truth to the genetic aspect of conditions.

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(and even then, some come from sunlight, so...)

Yea, vitamin D. Among others. But guess what? Most sunscreens deplete vitamin D from entering the skin. Which leads to believe it or not, skin cancer...

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It's like a painting. You want a picture to make the viewer appreciate something--say, the color yellow. You could make the enitre picture nothing but one giant rectagle of yellow. You could make it a mural of predominantly yellow objects. You could also surround your yellow with lots of darker colors or blend it with some orange. Violet, black and dark blue are great for setting off yellow, white and orange, for instance.
Thus, you could have a giant painting with lots of other colors--it could be 98% purple, but the viewer will notice the one yellow smear more than all of the violet. Simply put, that filler, that bunch of colorful antagonism to the goal, works to set off your tiny yellow smear of a goal better than an entire painting that's nothing but mustard on canvas.

Not sure if that made any sense to you, but it was the first example I could think of.

It made sense and it's a great example.

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But the basic point of what this article has failed to say is that nobody likes a preacher. So you write about natural cures being supressed as a "theme". This doesn't exaclty sound like just a simple premise. It sounds like you want to make a point. Great. But you shouldn't focus on it, shouldn't shove it down the readers throat; focus on the effects of "vitamins" being banned. The effects on your characters, hopefully. Don't make it too obvious that you're writing a novel to say "Go natural cures!" Mike C makes the point well.

Alrighty. Thanks.

Mike C · 07-11-2008, 12:41 PM

I think burying the message is the whole wrong tack. You don't want to bury it, unless you hit it over the head with a shovel and drag it's still twitching body to a shallow grave in the back yard.

You want to lose it. Forget you ever had a message, and just tell a story. Tell it truthfully, make it real, screw the theme and the reader will make the message for themselves.

seigfried007 · 07-11-2008, 01:21 PM

Have you read the nutritional contents of children's breakfast cereals lately? They'll never stop shoving vitamins in them. Just like moms will never stop wanting everything their children eat to be 'healthy'--and many go so far as to go the 'organic' route. I've met too many health nuts to think vitamins will ever be banned when fresh vegetables fit so much into instant weight loss schemes and vitamin C is a cult with Americans (who believe it cures almost everything largely due to the scurvy suffered by those coming over by boat centuries ago).

Bottom line, you can eat healthy and get all the exercise you want but you'll still get sick. Bacteria and viruses and genetic illneses do happen. Vitamins won't cure Down's syndrome, won't regenerate any lost tissues. They can expedite healing and aid in preventing disease by boosting the immune system (to an extent because there are other diseases caused by too much of a given vitamin).

As much as the media loves drug companies, it also loves to watch them crash in scandal when the vaccines cause problems, when the 'cure' for acne causes teens to commit suicide, etc. The media is a shark, a parasite, a lot of nasty things. It likes to watch failings probably more than it likes cures and good news.

Also, Americans have a craze about A) being healthy and B) being skinny--regardless of what they eat, how little some exercise, etc. For every fat person you see on TV, I see lots of bulemics, anorexics, people who live at the gym and have no life outside of physical fitness, etc.

I also see scads of anal retentive mothers shoveling health foods into the mouths of their children; moms who think all sugar is bad, moms who swear anything causes cancer (like salt). I've also seen people swear that ingesting horrendous amounts of vitamin C on a daily basis will essentailly make them immortal.

Also, the vitamin message rather falls flat considering these two news bits:

A) Folic acid is put into flour because of spina bifida and other neural tube defects. By placing folic acid in flour, which is in almost every diet in the States--by government order--many defects are prevented in unborn children.

B) Despite being the leading cause of poisoning death in children under six--due to fortification in foods designed for infant consumption and accidental overdose on children's and prenatal vitamins--iron is still in almost everything you can buy for babies.

Aside from that, Mike C's advice is very good as usual. Much like Kast13, I advise you also avoid the 'dirty hippie', which might be difficult considering the message and way you approached it when addressing my previous post.

S1E9A8N5 · 07-11-2008, 02:59 PM

I replied to your post seigfried007 but I decided to scrap it because I feel this isn't the place for that kind of discussion. I don't want to get into a back and forth never ending conversation on what you and I believe to be right and wrong. I've read a lot on the subject. Holistic and natural health is my "thing", so I'm very passionate about it. Hence the novel I would like to right. That's why I came here because I don't want my passion to cloud the judgment of my story. I had a problem with inserting natural cures and actual factual information on the subject in the story because I personally feel it's just too much to digest. Especially for someone who may disagree with it all.

So thanks for the advice.