Changes to the Forum Layout

[Pawn]

You might have noticed a few of the forums shifting about a bit today. We're trying to simplify things a little. If you've got ideas on how we can go further, we'd love to hear them.

We've given Poetry – one of our most popular forums – a section of its own, and housed the published poetry forum and Lyrics in there with it.

Critique & Advice has been merged into the Writers' Workshop.

Fiction has eaten Short Stories to form a more general Fiction forum.

The Writing 101 forum has been moved onto the articles system, over here. Not everything is up there yet, but it will be. You can leave your 101 submissions in this forum or PM them to any staff member.

Let us know what you think!

[The Backward OX]

You might have noticed a few of the forums shifting about a bit today. We're trying to simplify things a little. If you've got ideas on how we can go further, we'd love to hear them.

While the critique forum is a good place for just that, we don’t have anywhere dedicated specifically to making suggestions for changes and additions to, say, a chapter at a time of a longer piece of work. I canvassed such an idea, both here and on another site, and found the following four responses, amongst many others, quite interesting:

“We often brainstorm someone's idea, which might well fill it out. Some people are really good at this, approaching the concept from unexpected angles, coming up with twists, unexpected consequences, and such.”

“Suggestions are given, questions are asked about what the writer intended to convey, etc. I've found it very useful, and many of the suggestions they've given me have made my stories and my writing overall much stronger.”

“It was interesting, the way some folk came up with things I never even thought of”

“Maybe brainstorm. We did this with a classmate yesterday. (She's writing a screenplay about a family who want to sprinkle their deceased parents' ashes on the MCG) so we came up with a number of ways that could be done - to give the story some meat.”

I’d like to suggest a sub-forum, possibly although not essentially password-protected, where writers could put up pieces, not for critique but for suggestions regarding specific change/addition as outlined above.

[moderan]

Like a beta-reading wing? Hmm.
Pawn, I like the new layout very much.

[The Backward OX]

Like a beta-reading wing? Hmm.

Some people might infer from your word “beta” that I’m implying readers of an entire MS. I’m not. I don’t want to frighten anyone off. What I said was “a chapter at a time.”

[Non Serviam]

While the critique forum is a good place for just that, we don’t have anywhere dedicated specifically to making suggestions for changes and additions to, say, a chapter at a time of a longer piece of work.

Wiki software would be ideal for that, with the page being used for the story and an appended talk page for the commentary.

[moderan]

Off Topic:

You can do a chapter at a time in the Workshop. Hard to do an MS that way. Beta's betta.

[The Backward OX]

Off Topic:

You can do a chapter at a time in the Workshop. Hard to do an MS that way. Beta's betta.

Why do you keep talking about MSS? I’m not.

Originally Posted by The Backward OX
While the critique forum is a good place for just that, we don’t have anywhere dedicated specifically to making suggestions for changes and additions to, say, a chapter at a time of a longer piece of work.

In all my time here I have never once seen a critique forum used in the same way that people act in writers’ groups. Read my four OP quotes again, carefully, to understand what I’m getting at.

[moderan]

Ox, I understand what you're getting at. I'm trying NOT to derail Pawn's thread. I suggest you start your own.

[The Backward OX]

We were asked for suggestions. That is what I did. You're the one doing the derailing by going off topic.

This is the type of thing that utterly infuriates me about forums. I have in good faith made a serious suggestion for a way to improve the services we offer our members, which incidentally was what Pawn asked for, only to have it either misunderstood or rubbished, I'm not sure which.

[Baron]

I think the original suggestion is worth giving some thought to, Michael. I would add that there's no reason why you couldn't post in the short story prose board in the mean time with a note of the specific points that you want to address in the piece.

[Like a Fox]

What exactly is your suggestion though Ox man?

Another forum for WIPs?

I can see how that would be handy, (and perhaps we'd see a lot more of what people are working on, as so many of us seem to be doing that rather than writing short stories of a suitable length for the forum), but why can't chapters be posted in the Workshop with an explanation at the top as to what it is you are seeking? And if it's relevant and helpful... a synopsis.
That's how real life workshopping works in my experience.


Edit - I see now. You want workshopping more so than critiques. I still think another forum for that is a bit extreme. It really just boils down to a comment above the work asking for specifics:
Eg "I really need to know if you like the father character, and if not, why not." - That sort of thing.

[The Backward OX]

Fox, one problem with using the existing structure here is the negative connotations evoked by the word ‘critique’. There’s an interesting comment to be found on that topic by going to Dictionary.com and typing in ‘critique’. Okay, you’re lazy, so I’ve done it for you:

Usage Note: Critique has been used as a verb meaning "to review or discuss critically" since the 18th century, but lately this usage has gained much wider currency, in part because the verb criticize, once neutral between praise and censure, is now mainly used in a negative sense. But this use of critique is still regarded by many as pretentious jargon, although resistance appears to be weakening. In our 1997 ballot, 41 percent of the Usage Panel rejected the sentence As mock inquisitors grill him, top aides take notes and critique the answers with the President afterward. Ten years earlier, 69 percent disapproved of this same sentence. Resistance is still high when a person is critiqued: 60 percent of the Usage Panel rejects its use in the sentence Students are taught how to do a business plan and then are critiqued on it. Thus, it may be preferable to avoid this word. There is no exact synonym, but in most contexts one can usually substitute go over, review, or analyze. · Note, however, that critique is widely accepted as a noun in a neutral context; 86 percent of the Panel approved of its use in the sentence The committee gave the report a thorough critique and found it both informed and intelligent.

In my opinion, if the existing structure is used, and no matter how one’s post is labelled, people are going to steamroller straight over the top of that, and see the post as something to be critiqued. I’ve seen examples of that type of thing - asking for something specific, only for that request to be ignored by the respondent while they say what they want to say - far too often not to think it won’t keep happening.

A separate forum with clear guidelines along the lines suggested in the OP - "suggestions for changes and additions" for example - should avoid that.

[Like a Fox]

The biggest thing about all your quotes above and what you desire, is the group dynamic.
A 'critique' as I was referring to it, is one person's nits/impressions/overall view. Without any relation to anyone else's, generally.

When we 'workshop' in class, for example, someone might touch on the believability of a character, which will launch a discussion/argument.
As you so often state, the room for miscommunication here is much larger than in real life (though there are still morons who just. don't. get. it.)

Despite that, I like what you're saying, I would not be opposed to it. It'd be an interesting way to get feedback on WIP's anyway. But no matter where you are or what is clearly laid out, people are going to do things wrong.

[The Backward OX]

There's something weird here. I have an email about a post by Pawn. The message is "In response to the comments in this thread and those by BitofanInkling, we're still discussing the potential for a new or repurposed forum.
How do you like the sidebar?" but the post has not appeared here. Wtf?

[Pawn]

I thought better of posting.