Should the posting limit of 20,000 be increased? - Page 4 - Writers Forum

Vee · 05-09-2008, 12:10 AM

I voted NO the other day but I misread it as word limit rather than character limit. That said a character limit of 20000 is about 4000 words and 4-5000 words is about the maximum you should have in one post anyway. Otherwise it just becomes too difficult for the reader/viewer and you are unlikely to receive responses.

Raging_Hopeful · 05-09-2008, 12:17 AM

Actually no its not 4000-5000 words according to my word processor. I can get a little over 2000 words in a post before it cuts me off.

phurst · 05-09-2008, 10:45 AM

Stay with the shorter limit. If you have a good enough story, I'll ask for more but for the life of me, to critique a writer's work >20,000 is too much unpaid work for me and I usually only do a couple of paragraphs. Are you posting for a critique or to showcase your writing? If you want a full novel critique go pay for one and like I said, if you want to showcase your work, post a little and if I like it I'll ask for more. If I see someone posting a huge story, I usually skip over it because I don't have the time to invest and I have never received critiques of anything long that I have posted. But if it doesn't slow the site down, I really don't care. I'll just continue to skip the longer stuff.

seigfried007 · 05-09-2008, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JosephB

Good one, Ilasir. I don't do inline crits often, but this makes perfect sense.

You are correct also about this --- None of this effects the length of the stories I write. There are certain limitations associated with posting on line, but I don't let that effect my writing. Even the longer stories posted here aren't as long as the average short story you'll see in print.

Papertears, no problem. Thanks!

Note: From what I can see, no one who has voted against the character increase has posted anything that required multiple posts. So, easy for you to say folks. And still curious as to why you care.

Joe, thanks for pointing out that the average story in print is longer than a mere 1K, which seems to be the invisible line where lots of people draw concerning which stories they'll crit and which they won't.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if many respectable writers get published writing stories longer than 1K and the market for them is just as strong as flash, what's the harm in reading it and why not crit it--since the only reason we crit stories is to help other writers get published (Golden Rule and all that jazz)?

Two of the three stories I've posted have required more than one post, and yeah, it's a pain in the butt because it's not easy to guesstimate where the 20K character line is in a piece.

Critting is also made more difficult. I believe I had to stick one line-by-liner into three different posts (crit was twice as a long as the piece and took several hours--made that much more time consuming and irritating by having to split the stupid thing up).

I don't see how a shorter character limit benefits anyone.

seigfried007 · 05-09-2008, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phurst

Stay with the shorter limit. If you have a good enough story, I'll ask for more but for the life of me, to critique a writer's work >20,000 is too much unpaid work for me and I usually only do a couple of paragraphs. Are you posting for a critique or to showcase your writing? If you want a full novel critique go pay for one and like I said, if you want to showcase your work, post a little and if I like it I'll ask for more. If I see someone posting a huge story, I usually skip over it because I don't have the time to invest and I have never received critiques of anything long that I have posted. But if it doesn't slow the site down, I really don't care. I'll just continue to skip the longer stuff.

Wow, phurst, no wonder you don't get crits of longer pieces when you don't invest the time into other writers to go beyond a few paragraphs.

WW isn't a showcase--it's for people who actually mean to get published so, at least if you read there, you'll know you're reading a person who means business--at least, I know that do.

I don't see a point in wasting the time of other writers if I can't pay them back for their time by telling them, "Hey, you know that piece you crit for me? We'll, it's geting published in Asimov's."

Tiamat10 · 05-09-2008, 02:57 PM

Eh, I voted YES but I'm pretty much sitting on the fence on this one. Most of the things I write are short enough to fit into one post, but on occasion they don't and I've still gotten at least 15 replies if I recall correctly.

Most of the people that post such lengthy pieces are the ones that know what they're doing anyways. Joe, Gun, Swampy, etc... They always get reads because people know it's good stuff. And if someone whose 6,000-word story is riddled with typos, clichés, and general horridness decides to post it, we don't have to read the whole thing. Most of us stop reading crap stories after a few paragraphs anyways--even if it is within the current character limit.

In short, I see nothing wrong with upping the limit some, but if that doesn't happen, I'm not too irked by having to split my longer stuff into smaller chunks.

phurst · 05-09-2008, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seigfried007

Wow, phurst, no wonder you don't get crits of longer pieces when you don't invest the time into other writers to go beyond a few paragraphs.

WW isn't a showcase--it's for people who actually mean to get published so, at least if you read there, you'll know you're reading a person who means business--at least, I know that do.

I don't see a point in wasting the time of other writers if I can't pay them back for their time by telling them, "Hey, you know that piece you crit for me? We'll, it's geting published in Asimov's."

Dude, 90% of what I crit wouldn't get printed on toilet paper. I crit what I feel like. Why should I range through 50,000 words poor grammer and misspelled words when I can point it out in 2 paragraphs. If you would read what I wrote you would see that I would have little problem if the story interested me. I pay a professional editor to do mine. If you read the crits more than 50% disagree with the crit before them so which does the writer believe? I can tell you in 5 paragraps whether you're good enough to get published or need to go back and do work so why go 50,000 boring words to do that? If someone wants me to do their entire novel well sorry, I'm not that good so I won't waste their time or mine. And I have posted 500 word snippits that never had a look. Why don't you take the time to look at some of my crits before you crit my note. I do better than 30 crits for every post and have received about 20 crits total for every thing I posted.

eggo · 05-09-2008, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Backward OX

No I wouldn't. But neither would I be in that store in the first place. I do all my business with lurkers.

Not very helpful when you need socks and underwear.

Sam Winchester · 05-09-2008, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phurst

Dude, 90% of what I crit wouldn't get printed on toilet paper. I crit what I feel like. Why should I range through 50,000 words poor grammer and misspelled words when I can point it out in 2 paragraphs. If you would read what I wrote you would see that I would have little problem if the story interested me. I pay a professional editor to do mine. If you read the crits more than 50% disagree with the crit before them so which does the writer believe? I can tell you in 5 paragraps whether you're good enough to get published or need to go back and do work so why go 50,000 boring words to do that? If someone wants me to do their entire novel well sorry, I'm not that good so I won't waste their time or mine. And I have posted 500 word snippits that never had a look. Why don't you take the time to look at some of my crits before you crit my note. I do better than 30 crits for every post and have received about 20 crits total for every thing I posted.

You're probably not going to like this very much, Phurst, but I have to say it anyway.

First problem - you're calling Seigfried "Dude". She's a woman. That's a very derogatory name to call her. Calling a man that? No problem.

Second problem - you have a very high opinion of yourself. Not a bad thing, but you don't have to come across as overly pretentious, which is what you're beginning to do here.

Quote:

I can tell you in five paragraphs whether you're good enough to get published...

Really? So your job is a professional publisher or editor? If not, refrain from making snide remarks like this. Who are you to say that someone's work is or is not good enough to be published? We're not here to tear people down.

Quote:

I do better than 30 crits for every post and have received about 20 crits total for every thing I posted.

You're making it sound like you're the second coming here. You critique a lot of people's work. So? I've critiqued hundreds of pieces since I became a member, but I'm not going around broadcasting it. I like to help people. I don't do it for recognition.

On a positive note, I do agree that you do a lot to help people. Even your signature alludes to this. Still, I thought your post was somewhat out of line, and I had to step in.

Sam.

JosephB · 05-09-2008, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phurst

I crit what I feel like.

Exactly, dude. Word counts and scroll bars are great tools. I read a paragraph or two. If I'm intrigued, then based on the word count or a simple slide of the old scroll bar, I decide if it will be worth my time to read on. So really, if it's 2,000, 5,000 or 50,000 -- it doesn't make any difference to me. I simply chose not to read on.

But we are not talking about 50,00 words are we? No. We are talking about 3-4000 words. That's short, even for a short story. And it's about a lot more than spelling and grammar, as you know. In fact, that's really not an issue with most of the writers who post longer stories. It's about little things like plot, voice and character development -- things that can't be evaluated in 2-3 paragraphs.

So, your notion that I should only post a few paragraphs and then wait for your blessing before I presume to post more, isn't a very good one.

Vee · 05-09-2008, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raging_Hopeful

Actually no its not 4000-5000 words according to my word processor. I can get a little over 2000 words in a post before it cuts me off.

I was using the typists/keyboardists guide that there are 5 characters to a word.

phurst · 05-09-2008, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seigfried007

Wow, phurst, no wonder you don't get crits of longer pieces when you don't invest the time into other writers to go beyond a few paragraphs.

WW isn't a showcase--it's for people who actually mean to get published so, at least if you read there, you'll know you're reading a person who means business--at least, I know that do.

I don't see a point in wasting the time of other writers if I can't pay them back for their time by telling them, "Hey, you know that piece you crit for me? We'll, it's geting published in Asimov's."

Look. You attacked me here so try to stay with the topic. You made an assumption - above- which was out of line. Nobody needs to get my permission for anything. Post a whole book if you like. I said above that I don't care if you read that far. I've read enough to know good from bad and there is plenty of very bad here. I don't presume to be an expert but I've done my share here so I don't thinbk I deserve the shot you gave me. Let me see....I'm sorry. I haven't earned an opinion. Sorry I stepped out of line. Sorry Sam, I got a bit heated, you are correct. Hey post the dicitionary and I'll just keep my opinions to myself.

papertears · 05-10-2008, 02:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phurst

Dude, 90% of what I crit wouldn't get printed on toilet paper. I crit what I feel like. Why should I range through 50,000 words poor grammer and misspelled words when I can point it out in 2 paragraphs.

Why should I range through 50,000 words poor grammer and misspelled words
Why should I range through 50,000 words of poor grammar and misspelled words...

phurst · 05-10-2008, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by papertears

Why should I range through 50,000 words poor grammer and misspelled words
Why should I range through 50,000 words of poor grammar and misspelled words...

Ouch!

seigfried007 · 05-15-2008, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phurst

Dude, 90% of what I crit wouldn't get printed on toilet paper. I crit what I feel like. Why should I range through 50,000 words poor grammer and misspelled words when I can point it out in 2 paragraphs. If you would read what I wrote you would see that I would have little problem if the story interested me. I pay a professional editor to do mine. If you read the crits more than 50% disagree with the crit before them so which does the writer believe? I can tell you in 5 paragraps whether you're good enough to get published or need to go back and do work so why go 50,000 boring words to do that? If someone wants me to do their entire novel well sorry, I'm not that good so I won't waste their time or mine. And I have posted 500 word snippits that never had a look. Why don't you take the time to look at some of my crits before you crit my note. I do better than 30 crits for every post and have received about 20 crits total for every thing I posted.

Kind sir, your original post pretty much stated with all due flair that you're arrogant enough to consider yourself a fabulous judge of everything by the first few paragraphs... but go to a professional editor to get your pieces done.. and have a hard time getting crits here.

The reason so many critiques disagree is because they're written by many people--each will bring new points taht others might not have considered and certainly ones that you wouldn't have.

Fyi, I've had professional editors and writers look at my pieces and disagree. No joke, a writer who mentored me and has made a living on her fiction loved several of my stories and told me send them out to markets in which she'd been published (some beneath her current pro rank because I hadn't been published yet and top markets were less likely to look) and two of those pieces have been rejected by those markets because *ta-da* the professional isn't always in line with every editor. What your professional editor likes, dislikes, notices or fails to notice has no bearing on the opinions of those that will pay you rather than be paid by you.

As Joe wisely mentioned earlier, the writers in WW typically post higher caliber pieces that have been largely cleaned of the poor grammar and spelling you pointed out as problematic, and the things they want/need critiqued are typically larger, more complicated problems like voice, characterization, endings, flow, other oddities that are hard to sum up in corrected typos and sentences.

Aside even from that, you've already stated you won't read through even 4K if it doesn't float your boat right off, so why bother trashing people who would like to post 4K and don't mind critting it for other writers?

Maybe you spend more time in Critique and Advice like Sam, which is why I suggested with all due wonderfulness, that you hang out more in WW where I've found the crowd to be a bit more professional and likely to return meaningful critiques