Poetry Workshop Area - Writers Forum

Pete_C · 03-12-2008, 09:16 AM

Sorry, forget the idea. There's too many utter fuckwits on here to make it work.

Mermaid on the breakwater · 03-12-2008, 09:30 AM

Pete, the problem with the poetry section is that poems by good poets slide off the first page in the space of a couple of hours. It is not there just for critique, it is also there so that people can learn from the better poets and examples of their work. That, as you have pointed out, is the serious concern. I don't know how people would distinguish between finished and unfinished work. I think that most newbies would still flood the poetry section, thinking their work to be complete when it most definitely isn't. Unless you are proposing a board for new poets and one for more experienced/respected ones, I don't see how the idea could work.

smilinghelps · 03-12-2008, 12:38 PM

I do, title one section Poetry: Works in Progress.

Then people will post their pieces there that they are having difficulty with or need help or input.

The other thread will be for more advanced poets, perhaps it can be named :Advanced Poetry. And then it will critiqued as such.

I think its fairly simple...but what do I know?

Pete_C · 03-12-2008, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mermaid on the breakwater

The problem with the poetry section is that poems by good poets slide off the first page in the space of a couple of hours. It is not there just for critique, it is also there so that people can learn from the better poets and examples of their work. ... I don't know how people would distinguish between finished and unfinished work. I think that most newbies would still flood the poetry section, thinking their work to be complete when it most definitely isn't. Unless you are proposing a board for new poets and one for more experienced/respected ones, I don't see how the idea could work.

First off, I have to take issue with the perception that the "newbies" should learn from the "good poets" by reading their work. I think the generalisation made here is symptomatic of a lot of what is wrong with the Poetry section. Because people are "newbies" to the forum, they should sit and learn from the often mediocre work that inhabits the front page?

Secondly, I am not talking about finished and unfinished work. Where did you get that notion? I am talking about writers showing their poetry, and workshopping.

At present, the section is pretty much totally showing work, and next to zero workshopping.

A Workshop has nothing to do with unfinished. It might not even involve poems. As an example, let's call the sections Poetry Crit and Poetry Workshop.

In Poetry Crit, it would as per the majority of the current Poetry section. People post their poems, and others read them and give a general opinion, perhaps with a few comments.

In Poetry Workshop, someone might post part of a work, explaining what they are trying to achieve. Others could then discuss their aims and methods, provide help and/or criticism, maybe even join in the creative process. Experimental work could be examined from all angles. Everyone learns, and the process is creative. The goal is not to end up with a poem, but to share ideas and learn from mutual experience.

That's the difference. At present, any attempts at workshopping, or experimentation get lost or snuffed out with offhand comments that they're not proper poetry or not good enough or should be finished. Either that or they end up on page 3 or 4 with no replies. Those people never come back.

If people just want to show their poems and slap each other on the back, they can - in Poetry Crit. If they want to delve into the creative mire, they can - in Poetry Workshop. People can visit both, just one or none, as they wish.

Finally, Workshopping isn't about "new poets" as compared to the "more experienced/respected ones", whoever they might be. To me, any writer worth their salt wants to workshop and to grow creatively. This isn't about keeping the "newbies" off the "good poets" lawn; it's about creativity - something you seem to have missed totally in your post.

Maybe you can't see how it work because it's not your kind of thing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by smilinghelps

I do, title one section Poetry: Works in Progress.

Then people will post their pieces there that they are having difficulty with or need help or input.

The other thread will be for more advanced poets, perhaps it can be named :Advanced Poetry. And then it will critiqued as such.

I think its fairly simple...but what do I know?

Again, this isn't about Advanced and lower. I'm sure many advanced poets would want to workshop. Maybe they don't stop here for long because it doesn't happen. Instead, we have a parade of people showing off their work. For me, if I just want to have my work read, I'd send it to publishers. This is about getting a creative interaction going between those who want it. If anything, I would see a Workshop environment being higher level and more productive (and more critical) than the current section is. However, it work better because people get be involved in the process too.

Mermaid on the breakwater · 03-12-2008, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete_C

At present, the section is pretty much totally showing work, and next to zero workshopping.

Perhaps if you gave a proper critique that wouldn't be the case.

smilinghelps · 03-12-2008, 02:57 PM

Ok, maybe the wrong choice of words--

How about

Poetry Workshop: Works in Progress

Poetry Thread: Nearly Finished or Final Drafts

Does it have to be more difficult than that?

Foxee · 03-12-2008, 03:46 PM

Yikes...I didn't even get to read the OP. I'm guessing that you wanted a protected forum like Writer's Workshop? Or am I off the beaten track? Not much time to read all the posts.

Feel free to PM the staff, too, with an idea like this.

Mermaid on the breakwater · 03-12-2008, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Foxee

Yikes...I didn't even get to read the OP. I'm guessing that you wanted a protected forum like Writer's Workshop? Or am I off the beaten track? Not much time to read all the posts.

Feel free to PM the staff, too, with an idea like this.

foxee, I really wouldn't encourage him. I would only need to press the report button under some of his recent posts and you'd see why this thread has arisen.

He's not offering a viable option for the admin, he's having a rant that the poetry forum doesn't work the way he'd like it to - PeteC as the centre of attention.

Shawn · 03-12-2008, 04:46 PM

It's important to encourage debates among the members on things that they might want changed or that are not satisfactory.

Perhaps it is for people to set new outlooks on their conduct in the poetry forum that would be best, Pete; but that is not something that the staff can do.

Creativity is the main objective of the poetry maneuver, as I'm sure you know; which, by the way, Hawke will be handling the rest of this challenge while I attend to some business in the non-cyber-world.

I was planning on doing this anyway, but for the next challenge, I will be introducing a new aspect to the competition which I think you might enjoy, and which I think will draw a lot more interest and satisfaction on the part of the competitors.

Mike C · 03-12-2008, 05:49 PM

Although I missed the OP, I get the distinction between critique and workshopping. However, nobody gets a workshopping option, whether poets or fictioneers, and I'm not sure there are that many people here qualified to contribute to a workshop in any meaningful way.

Not trying to slide the issue under the carpet, but maybe the forum isn't the best place for a workshop - it may be better for the select few who would benefit most and be able to contribute most to get something going by email or PM? That would at least preclude all the "I fink it woz guud" comments.

Personally I'd like to see a similar system for fiction, which I've spoken to a few people about; intense workshopping with a small, select crowd, with the sole aim of getting work published, but so far it's not really got off the ground.

Ilasir Maroa · 03-12-2008, 07:17 PM

Having only the responses for info, I find it clear that Pete is not talking about critiques, of "finished" or "unfinished" work. "Crirtique" to me says read and make suggestions. "Workshop" says delve into goals for a piece, discuss and I mean discuss, not "suggestion for this piece, author's response". I can see in many of the threads in poetry that there is not much discussion of theme and alternate ways of presentation, or deeper thoughts on style. There's less of improving a single piece, and more of working on style in general. Could be way off base here.

Katastrof · 03-12-2008, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike C

Personally I'd like to see a similar system for fiction, which I've spoken to a few people about; intense workshopping with a small, select crowd, with the sole aim of getting work published, but so far it's not really got off the ground.

Bah just ignore the post...

Cran · 03-12-2008, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike C

Although I missed the OP, I get the distinction between critique and workshopping. However, nobody gets a workshopping option, whether poets or fictioneers, and I'm not sure there are that many people here qualified to contribute to a workshop in any meaningful way...

But Mike C, isn't that what the Writers Workshop section was supposed to be all about?

If the Writers Workshop is not operating as it should, then perhaps the mods and those who know something about it should be steering the thing into the right direction ... rather than trying to set up an outside alternative?

and if workshopping poets want to be a class apart, as happened with the challenges, then how difficult is it to include a Poets Workshop? ...

hmm, I wonder if the non-fiction and fiction writers would prefer separate rooms?

valeca · 03-12-2008, 08:04 PM

To clarify:

The Writers' Workshop was originally set up to offer some form of protection for first publishing rights.

Ilasir Maroa · 03-12-2008, 10:05 PM

Don't all writer's enjoy the imprecision of language? "Workshop" "critique" such lovely terms, if only they could be nailed down...

I'm all for a "workshopping" by PeteC's definition, but I don't think it ought to be for elites only.