Poetry Workshop Area - Page 2 - Writers Forum

The Backward OX · 03-12-2008, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mermaid on the breakwater

the poetry forum doesn't work the way he'd like it to - PeteC as the centre of attention.

How can that be? Didn't I read somewhere that Baron is the centre of attention?

Ilasir Maroa · 03-12-2008, 10:24 PM

And here I thought I was the centre of attention. "Now I made myself sad..."

Cran · 03-12-2008, 10:27 PM

ahh ... so, a rose by any other name ...

might be a rhodadendron ...

ps - ad hom jibes achieve nothing but rancour ...

Baron · 03-12-2008, 10:45 PM

Ilasir: it doesn't seem to be particularly clear what Pete's suggestions are.
OX: and why not?
Valeca: the most valid point I've read in this thread.

The poems posted in the poetry forum tend to get more indepth critiques than those posted in the writers' workshop. There have been debates on the forum about critiques and there are as many different attitudes as there are people posting there. Perhaps someone coud explain why another board would improve matters?

If people have been reviewing each other's work over a period of time and have got to know one another then cliques develope. The same thing is likely to hapen on a new board. The cliques are really easy to break into though. All it takes is to give and receive reviews. If newcomers slip away, in truth, it's often because there's only one person on the board who will flagrantly tell the posters how bad their work is. By no stretch of the imagination do I see that as a virtue above those who critique honestly, as they see it, the poetry that has some kind of merit.

Ilasir Maroa · 03-12-2008, 10:49 PM

I think I have a pretty good idea what pete is proposing. Having not seen the original post however, I cannot be sure. I have no real experience one way or the other tha would suggest if it is workable, but I do agree that if it is decided to try, the prose writer's ought to have one, too.

Olly Buckle · 03-13-2008, 04:07 AM

We have people of mixed abilities and a continuously changing membership, we all fancy ourselves as writers, ergo we have ego, those who have little to say think they have lots to say, all wish to make their mark. Unless you appoint a censor with a big black pen it will all end up the same. I would point you at page 7 of Ox's showing or telling thread where I was thoroughly enjoying the discussion between Foxee and Qwerty Man, and actually learning something, when Alchemist came in with the most banal comment I think I have read on the forum. This will always happen, I can see no way to legislate against it effectively. It is the bane of any sort of free, open or democratic social system, you have to tolerate the ignorant and stupid commenting, or in our case read round them. Maybe we should refrain from encouraging critique in the general way we do and get more selective, create an elite, separate from the staff, who are the only ones allowed to critique in certain threads.
Another thought , a way of censoring fairly and letting everybody in, how about a score you can add to at the top of the critique post, anything that hasn't clocked up a certain score within 48 hours is automatically removed and you can't add score to your own posts. Systems which show what is wanted and give people something to aspire to. But I think that what we haave is fine really, imperfect like the world and pretty good.

Cran · 03-13-2008, 10:03 AM

oh well ... if this is going to ramble on about critiques,
then the whole point about workshops is lost ...

Baron · 03-13-2008, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cran

oh well ... if this is going to ramble on about critiques,
then the whole point about workshops is lost ...

The point isn't lost. The reality is that on an open forum a reall workshop is not easily manageable. Added to this is the fact that there are few qualified to lead a real workshop. As ms vodka has pointed out on another recent thread, it is best done on a properly established basis and with a regognised poet leading it. Ideally it should be one to one.

Critiques and reviews are the best that can be expected on open forums, check out the writers' workshop area; it functions no differently to the other boards. Many have improved greatly as a result of interaction on these boards, which is a result in itself.

Several of those who regularly visit the poetry forum have already created their own option to take things further than that particular board will allow, while continuing to contribute to this forum.

Cran · 03-13-2008, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baron

The point isn't lost. The reality is that on an open forum a reall workshop is not easily manageable.

many things are not easily manageable on an open forum - how is that relevant?

Quote:

Added to this is the fact that there are few qualified to lead a real workshop. As ms vodka has pointed out on another recent thread, it is best done on a properly established basis and with a regognised poet leading it.

there are few qualified to lead anything - how is that relevant?

Quote:

Ideally it should be one to one.

a workshop? ... since when? the closest thing to a workshop in a one-to-one situation is a tutorial ...

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Critiques and reviews are the best that can be expected on open forums,

really? ... then discussions, debates, illustrative examples, and challenges - all components of a workshop - are not the best, in your view?

Quote:

check out the writers' workshop area; it functions no differently to the other boards.

because it was not designed to be a workshop, as already stated; it's a time-limited and viewer-limited critique section to protect first publishing rights ... why it was named a workshop is another matter ...

Quote:

Many have improved greatly as a result of interaction on these boards, which is a result in itself.

Several of those who regularly visit the poetry forum have already created their own option to take things further than that particular board will allow, while continuing to contribute to this forum.

which might have some bearing on why the idea was raised in the first place ...

Mermaid on the breakwater · 03-13-2008, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cran

many things are not easily manageable on an open forum - how is that relevant?

Because it's even more difficult to manage.

Quote:

there are few qualified to lead anything - how is that relevant?

Because it's more difficult to lead a workshop online for a forum of this scale.

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really? ... then discussions, debates, illustrative examples, and challenges - all components of a workshop - are not the best, in your view?

Countered by:

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because it was not designed to be a workshop, as already stated; it's a time-limited and viewer-limited critique section to protect first publishing rights ... why it was named a workshop is another matter ...

If the writers' workshop doesn't operate as a workshop, why should a poetry workshop?

Quote:

which might have some bearing on why the idea was raised in the first place ...

I think not - not if we consider the motives of the person who proposed this.

Baron · 03-13-2008, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cran

many things are not easily manageable on an open forum - how is that relevant?

there are few qualified to lead anything - how is that relevant?

a workshop? ... since when? the closest thing to a workshop in a one-to-one situation is a tutorial ...

really? ... then discussions, debates, illustrative examples, and challenges - all components of a workshop - are not the best, in your view?

because it was not designed to be a workshop, as already stated; it's a time-limited and viewer-limited critique section to protect first publishing rights ... why it was named a workshop is another matter ...

which might have some bearing on why the idea was raised in the first place ...

I'm really not interested in getting into debated or flaming contests with you again, Cran. It seems that you still have some kind of axe to grind.

I have stated a common sense postion and whichever way this goes I'd like to see some suggestions from those who regularly contribute to the forum.

Also: debates do take place in the poetry forum, as well as critiques and reviews. The poetry challenge that I initiated before Christmas has now become the LM poetry challenge (despite you "help"). All of these elements are in place and simply need to be made better use of with less infantile feuding.

Mermaid on the breakwater · 03-13-2008, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Backward OX

How can that be? Didn't I read somewhere that Baron is the centre of attention?

Ox, I don't conclusively know why you decided to throw your line into murky waters, but I have a fair idea. Perhaps it would be best if you asked the fairest lady what the problem is?

Cran · 03-13-2008, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baron

It seems that you still have some kind of axe to grind.

wrong again ...

Quote:

I have stated a common sense postion and whichever way this goes I'd like to see some suggestions from those who regularly contribute to the forum.

if you say so ...

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Also: debates do take place in the poetry forum ...

yes, they do, and have been criticised for it - for taking up space on the page, or for taking over a thread ... as have other aspects (questions, etc) not directly related to an individual OP's poem and subsequent comments or critiques ...

Quote:

The poetry challenge that I initiated before Christmas has now become the LM poetry challenge ...

yes - so I was surprised at your comment about critiques being the best we can expect ...

the LM Poetry Challenge, and its forerunner, are important new contributions to the forum ... but they were set up to be competitive/scored, where the aim is to produce the best judged complete poem on a given subject ...

workshop challenges are not competitions - they are not scored - and would rarely require complete poems ... rather, they are illustrative exercises to explore an individual aspect or device, and would likely include pre-, inter- and post- discussions about that aspect or device ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mermaid on the breakwater

If the writers' workshop doesn't operate as a workshop, why should a poetry workshop?

you already have the answer to that - design, or original intent -

Quote:

because [the writers' workshop] was not designed to be a workshop, ... why it was named a workshop is another matter ...

perhaps whoever named the section had no clue about, or no interest in, workshops, but just wanted a trendy name to distinguish it from Critique and Advice ...

Quote:

consider the motives of the person who proposed this.

I've no interest in making assumptions about anyone's motives ... feuds, ad hom attacks, bruised egos - all irrelevant wastes of space and time, really ...

I'm aware that similar ideas/questions have been aired, not by the OP, before this thread ... and I think its an idea worth discussing, preferably without prejudice ... even if all it does is strengthen the concept of what a workshop should be, or could be ...

Baron · 03-13-2008, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cran

wrong again ...

if you say so ...

yes, they do, and have been criticised for it - for taking up space on the page, or for taking over a thread ... as have other aspects (questions, etc) not directly related to an individual OP's poem and subsequent comments or critiques ...

yes - so I was surprised at your comment about critiques being the best we can expect ...

the LM Poetry Challenge, and its forerunner, are important new contributions to the forum ... but they were set up to be competitive/scored, where the aim is to produce the best judged complete poem on a given subject ...

workshop challenges are not competitions - they are not scored - and would rarely require complete poems ... rather, they are illustrative exercises to explore an individual aspect or device, and would likely include pre-, inter- and post- discussions about that aspect or device ...

you already have the answer to that - design, or original intent -
perhaps whoever named the section had no clue about, or no interest in, workshops, but just wanted a trendy name to distinguish it from Critique and Advice ...

I've no interest in making assumptions about anyone's motives ... feuds, ad hom attacks, bruised egos - all irrelevant wastes of space and time, really ...

I'm aware that similar ideas/questions have been aired, not by the OP, before this thread ... and I think its an idea worth discussing, preferably without prejudice ... even if all it does is strengthen the concept of what a workshop should be, or could be ...

Agreed, this is a topic worth discussing and if anything is learnt from the discussion then that also can only be to the good.

People knock the concept of elitism on this board. Let's be clear. Some are more serious about their writing than others; some are better than others - these are facts. To operaate a serious workshop on open forum would be no easy task and there are areas of the forum that , if properly used, at least give a taste.

Were such a workshop set up then it must be for those who are serious about it. Some selection would need to take place to ensure that the the kinds of feuds an petty flames that occur on other boards doesn't undemine it. The moment that this is initiated it is going to give rise to those protests of elitism.

If all the jurdles can be over come then it would most certainly be a good thing. A cure for cancer would be a good thing too.

Cran · 03-14-2008, 01:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baron

Agreed, this is a topic worth discussing and if anything is learnt from the discussion then that also can only be to the good.

People knock the concept of elitism on this board. Let's be clear. Some are more serious about their writing than others; some are better than others - these are facts.

sure ... but how is that different from what already happens? Or, what can we do to change that kind of thinking once it's already there?

Quote:

To operaate a serious workshop on open forum would be no easy task and there are areas of the forum that , if properly used, at least give a taste.

few things are ever easy; and those which are easy are often not worthwhile ... so, is there potential in steering those areas into being "properly used"? - half a loaf is still better than no bread ...

Quote:

Were such a workshop set up then it must be for those who are serious about it. Some selection would need to take place to ensure that the the kinds of feuds an petty flames that occur on other boards doesn't undemine it. The moment that this is initiated it is going to give rise to those protests of elitism.

alternatively, the wits can be tolerated ... and the halfwits (trolls, flamers, etc) can be ignored, even deleted - ie, perhaps stronger moderation of an area is better than vetting (potentially turning away people simply because they're new or someone doesn't like their work or viewpoint) ...

Quote:

If all the jurdles can be over come then it would most certainly be a good thing. A cure for cancer would be a good thing too.

agreed ... funny enough, just a couple of days ago there was an announcement about blocking the gene that controls breast cancer, preventing it from spreading to other parts of the body ...