How The Low Standards of Critiques Affect Writers on this Forum

[Ilasir Maroa]

I hope that I am not comitting a faux pas in making this suggestion here, rather than pming an admin/mod with a proposal to address this topic in an existing thread in Writing 101, but I have noticed something that I consider to be the only real flaw in this site's otherwise wonderful system of encouraging and helping people to improve their wiriting skills. The flaw is actually very simple, and while I have found a few individual threads adressing this topic with prompts and formulas, I have yet to see a concerted effort to deal with the problem.

My suggestion concerns what seems to be an almost universal opinion that critiques are inviolate and should not be questioned as to the justifications that the critiquer chooses to avoid making, or just omits by accident. Many people have gotten rather annoyed when I tried to make what I saw as a rather innocent queries into the reasons behind some of their comments on a story I posted in "Critique and Advice." They said that they had been under the impression that the "Critique and Advice" board was there solely for the critiqueing of stories and that authors didn't have the right to question the reasons behind a critique. I am forced to admit that I found this attitude appalling, and still see it as an excuse to avoid giving reasons to back up the critique that the person never had in the first place.

I believe that you can improve your critiqueing skills in the same way you improve your writing skills: by experience, by hands on work, and most importantly, by listening to and learning from suggestions given by other members.

The "Reviewer's Handbook" thread(I think that's the right name) in Writing 101 is good for giving ideas on providing a good critique. However it is not read by many of the members on the forum, and is not remotely comprehensive enough to deal with a misapprehension that I have found to etched deeply into the collective psyche of almost the entire forum.

When I tried to give a suggestion to a certain member of the forum on his critiqueing, he took it way too personally. He accused me of not being able to accept honest critiques, and then became angry and defensive when I suggested that what I was giving him was my honest opinion on his critiqueing strengths and weaknesses. If it was acceptable to write like many people here critique(and I am not saying I don't sometimes have similar problems, just that I am willing to take advice on how to improve things), then this would be a much less powerful tool for people to improve their writing.

What I want to ask is this: why should I be held to people's high standards of writing and storytelling ability, if they cannot be held to the same standards in their critiques? If you want to be a writer, then being able to critique your own work well is as valuable as being able to write well; and trying to critque other's work well is nothing more than a basic courtesy.

To that end, I would like to suggest that there be a section of this forum, small or large(but at least a thread big) devoted to the improvement of critiqueing skills as opposed to writing skills. It is my honest opinion that this would help to greatly improve the quality of critiques and advice and through that, indirectly, improve the quality of writing that members of this forum can achieve.

I would like to know the opinions of the admins, supervisors, mods and mentors, and of course the opinions of forum members, on how they feel about the problem I have mentioned, and the suggestion I have made on how to deal with it. I do not mean this to disrespect anyone on this forum in any way, but I do feel that it should be adressed, and I know there was a thread by Azmakna on a similar subject, so it is not without precedent. Thank you n advance for your thoughts, whichever side you take, for or against.


PS. If this is in the wrong area, please fell free to move it to the proper section of the boards.

PPS. And please don't take this as an arrogant statement. I did have an issue with some critiques following the pattern I described, and I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings by singling them out in a story thread(Which has already, unfortunatley, and despite my best intentions, has occured.), so I thought I'd try to deal with the problem at it's source(I don't mean the forum's themselves, just the body of members as a whole).

[Sayuri007]

I agree with you, because I personally need lessons on how to critique. I am basically scared to critique someone's work because whenever my class ever critiques, most people say "That's good" or "That's not" without any reason. And I am not comfortable with grammer or punctuation to critique someone else's work. If something doesn't quite sit right with me, I want to be able to clearly say why. What's the point of being in a Writing Forum if your not going to learn anything? Am I right or being a jerk?

[Ilasir Maroa]

As far as I am concerned you are being right.

I hope that in this setting, with no one singled out, and no one feeling the need to defend themselves against a personal "attack" on a specific critique, everyone can be honest with themselves and state their true opinion on this subject.

I am glad that this got such a fast response, and while I would love to hear the opinion of more established forum members, I am also very honored to hear at least one of the newer members echo my sentiments. I hope that future responders have your honesty, humility, and open mind, traits which I think every good author/writer should have.

[Lost in Some Story]

Thank you for posting this, Ilasir Maroa. I think people forget the emotion and sweat the goes into the work that authors produce. I like my work to be critiqued, but I also like the critique to be respectful, and at the end of the day, I'm the writer. I make the final decision.

I try to make my comments on pieces lucid and helpful. I try and think of the way I would like someone to critique my work.

A little golden rule helps out a lot in this circumstance.

Lost

[Ilasir Maroa]

Well, I wasn't exactly refering to the level of respect, but I have also noticed that in a few areas, and I see no inconsistency with trying to instill proper respect for work in a discussion on good critiqueing.

[valeca]

I don't want to shoot you down on this, but here are a couple of points to keep in mind.

This is a public forum. You're going to get everyone from seasoned and published authors with tons of experience to newbie writers who've just decided this past week they want to write a novel, and every skill level in between. There isn't a single, standard critiquing style to go by that can be taught, really. At best, you can make suggestions on the type of critiques you'd like to see, but you can't demand that everyone follow them. If you want to start a thread about opinions or types of critiques, post away. It could help someone. But if you're going to put it out there for all and sundry to read, be prepared for all different styles and levels of critique.


Another thing to keep in mind is: Summer usually brings an influx of new members, and most often new younger members who don't have the knowledge or experience to tell you specifically why they do, or don't, like something, nor should they feel pressured into having to justify why they do (or don't). Often, that sort of pressure will put someone off offering up another critique any time soon.

why should I be held to people's high standards of writing and storytelling ability, if they cannot be held to the same standards in their critiques?

Because, generally speaking,most people are here to improve their writing skills, not their critiquing skills. I do agree that critiquing other work can greatly help you with your own writing, don't get me wrong, I'm a big believer in that, but we aren't here to critique the critique. That make sense?

trying to critque other's work well is nothing more than a basic courtesy.

Who defines 'well'? If someone offers a critique that stems from their skill level, but falls short of mine, have they been discourteous?

Remember, they've taken some of their time and selected your work, out of the hundreds of possible choices, to read. If you're lucky, they'll leave you some feedback, but it isn't a requirement. If you've gotten, what you consider to be, good feedback, you've hit the jackpot. If you don't like what someone has said, fuggetabout it. Move on. Don't sweat it.

And when all else fails, lead by example.

[Non Serviam]

Critters Writers' Workshop

[Ilasir Maroa]

I don't feel shot down. That's your honest opinion, Valeca. It was just a thought. I'll think about starting a thread. Though I still encourage people to do their own research(might not be quite the right word) into how to improve their critiques. Thanks for the comment. I understand that this site is not here to improve critiques, but I still think that if critiquers expect others to not to take their critiques personally, that the author can expect just a little of the same fortitude when they ask for clarification on the critque.

Also, thanks to Non Serviam for the link.

[Triquediqual]

I agree with Valeca here, to cater for all types wouldn't be viable at all.

Triq

[Pawn]

I find myself widely in agreement with the vast majority of what you've written. Critique is always most effective as a dialogue. The people that jump to the overtly defensive the moment their views are questioned tend to be the ones who didn't put all that much thought into their views in the first place. I am all for encouraging a higher quality of critique throughout the forum and, as something of an open letter, this thread may serve to that end.

I have to say I'm unconvinced though that a new forum of the type you've suggested would be remotely practical; frankly I don't know if it would be so much as used.

Critique has always been defined here, and I would suggest elsewhere, by the individual relationships between writers. Nurturing the more promising is, as is written in so many threads, the only way to assure not only that ones' work is consistently read, but that one receives the kind of readers that the work requires. I continue to believe then that no small change in the mechanics of the forum as a whole will abet these kinds of unique, nuanced relationships.

[Ilasir Maroa]

Tri- not sure what you mean, could you explain?


Ah, thank you Pawn. Your comment arrived at just the right time. I realize now that the last sentence of your first paragraph is really what I wanted in the first place. A thread that encourages people to improve their critiqueing skills as well as their writing skills, and informs them of the importance of back and forth critique for improving both the story that is being critiqued, and the quality of critique that they might recieve in the future.

I think this thread serves as a good example of the principle in that by going back and forth, you and valeca have helped me to come to a useful conclusion on the subject. I didn't really mean to suggest that a whole new forum be created for the topic(I'm sure you have better things to do, I was just trying to find out what could be done that would make the most difference for the least effort.

The one question I have is: Is there already a thread that could serve this purpose, or would it be better to make a new one; and if it would, where should such a thread be put, and would you mind if I tried to start one myself?

[Ilasir Maroa]

Huh? Where exactly did that come WordWeaver? I'm not sure anyone mentioned references like that. And while I do understand the point about the exciting read on the subway, I'm not sure how it relates to critiques on this site, except that many people here are new and just fans trying their hand. Is that what you meant?

[Storm Eagle]

I feel that if you can't withold the ctrique of the people on this forum, who are writers, and are trying to give you constructive critiscm, then you have no place in writing. CRITQUES ARE SUPPOSED TO MAGNIFY EVERY LITTLE BAD THING IN ANYONE'S WORK!!!!! While some people do sometimes overdo it here, I am essentially agreeing with Word Weaver on this.

[Ilasir Maroa]

I think we're getting a little off-topic here. This wasn't supposed to be about whether or not you can "withstand"(which i believe was the word you were looking for, stormeagle) people's critiques. It's about the critiques themselves. To move the topic back on course, I think I'll put it this way:

Do you, or do you not, think that people should be able to ask for clarification and elaboration of a critique, without making the other person feel the need to defend their critique?

[valeca]

Sure, you can always ask. It doesn't mean you'll get an answer, nor are you entitled to one by rights. The simplest, and often most effective, way to approach it is to just ask for clarification as to what the poster meant.