How The Low Standards of Critiques Affect Writers on this Forum

[Hodge]

Originally Posted by Shawn

But you can't do one effectively without the other. There can be a strength in style but a weakness in vision, analysis allows us to see those faults (and really magnify them).

Yes you can... Literary analysis has less to do with a text than it does with the author's perceptions and ability to argue. A critique is just advice on style (and content if it's unbelievable or something).

[Shawn]

Originally Posted by Hodge

Yes you can... Literary analysis has less to do with a text than it does with the author's perceptions and ability to argue. A critique is just advice on style (and content if it's unbelievable or something).

Gah, you're right. Analysis is just my bag, though.

[ClancyBoy]

The bottom line really is that beggars can't be choosers. If you want a professional opinion, be prepared to pay for a professional.

[Baron]

Originally Posted by Ilasir Maroa

I think we're getting a little off-topic here. This wasn't supposed to be about whether or not you can "withstand"(which i believe was the word you were looking for, stormeagle) people's critiques. It's about the critiques themselves. To move the topic back on course, I think I'll put it this way:

Do you, or do you not, think that people should be able to ask for clarification and elaboration of a critique, without making the other person feel the need to defend their critique?

If someone gives an in depth critique then they should be able to support it.

[Cran]

Originally Posted by Hodge

Yes you can... Literary analysis has less to do with a text than it does with the author's perceptions and ability to argue. A critique is just advice on style (and content if it's unbelievable or something).

But Hodge, isn't any assessment of an author's ability to argue contingent upon the presentation of the argument - the language, logic and structure of each point - ie, the style and content?

Originally Posted by Ilasir Maroa
I think we're getting a little off-topic here. This wasn't supposed to be about whether or not you can "withstand"(which i believe was the word you were looking for, stormeagle) people's critiques. It's about the critiques themselves. To move the topic back on course, I think I'll put it this way:

Do you, or do you not, think that people should be able to ask for clarification and elaboration of a critique, without making the other person feel the need to defend their critique?

So,this is less about "the standard of critiques" per se, and more about a willingness (or lack thereof) to follow through on a critique once given - to seek, and provide further explanations if asked, rather than leave someone "hanging in the wind" or wondering what was meant ...
yes, Ilasir?

[Selorian]

If I spend an hour of my time (that could be spent writing) critiquing a piece, I'm not likely going to spend even more time justifying what I said in it. My time is at a premium. They have the option to take or leave the advice I offer, and if they are already questioning the validity of it, then they likely aren't going to if I spend another hour explaining my reasonings.

Originally Posted by [B

Ilasir Maroa[/b]]...To move the topic back on course, I think I'll put it this way:

Do you, or do you not, think that people should be able to ask for clarification and elaboration of a critique, without making the other person feel the need to defend their critique?

That wasn't what this thread was about. It was about people being able to take criticism on their critiques they gave because they didn't live up to the standards you felt they did. Maybe you need to revisit your original post to refresh your memory.

[Cran]

Originally Posted by Selorian

If I spend an hour of my time (that could be spent writing) critiquing a piece, I'm not likely going to spend even more time justifying what I said in it. My time is at a premium. They have the option to take or leave the advice I offer, and if they are already questioning the validity of it, then they likely aren't going to if I spend another hour explaining my reasonings.

That doesn't bode well for someone seeking clarification (the what and why) of any point you've made, Selorian ...
further, it smacks of poor forum protocol - the "hit and run" poster ...

better, perhaps, that you spend your premium time writing,
and leave the critiquing to those willing to follow through on their initial investment?

Originally Posted by Ilasir Maroa...
To move the topic back on course, I think I'll put it this way:
Do you, or do you not, think that people should be able to ask for clarification and elaboration of a critique, without making the other person feel the need to defend their critique?

Originally Posted by Selorian

That wasn't what this thread was about. It was about people being able to take criticism on their critiques they gave because they didn't live up to the standards you felt they did. Maybe you need to revisit your original post to refresh your memory.

Well, it might have been better worded, but the point is made in the OP ...

Originally Posted by [B

Ilasir Maroa[/b]]My suggestion concerns what seems to be an almost universal opinion that critiques are inviolate and should not be questioned as to the justifications that the critiquer chooses to avoid making, or just omits by accident. Many people have gotten rather annoyed when I tried to make what I saw as a rather innocent queries into the reasons behind some of their comments on a story I posted in "Critique and Advice." They said that they had been under the impression that the "Critique and Advice" board was there solely for the critiqueing of stories and that authors didn't have the right to question the reasons behind a critique. I am forced to admit that I found this attitude appalling, and still see it as an excuse to avoid giving reasons to back up the critique that the person never had in the first place.

[Selorian]

Originally Posted by Cran

That doesn't bode well for someone seeking clarification (the what and why) of any point you've made, Selorian ...
further, it smacks of poor forum protocol - the "hit and run" poster ...

better, perhaps, that you spend your premium time writing,
and leave the critiquing to those willing to follow through on their initial investment?


Well, it might have been better worded, but the point is made in the OP ...

Ah, no, the point wasn't made. There has been quite a bit of back-peddling here as to what was or wasn't meant.

I never give a critique that I don't give my reasons for any suggestions I make right in the critique. If that isn't enough, then what more can I do? Take the time to justify my reasons further while the person makes snide remarks about the grammar I used in the critique? That is what it appears Ilasir does. Do you think that instills a desire in anyone to want to offer further critiques?

Snide remarks and a sense of superiority by Ilasir over those offering the best help they can is what smacks of poor forum protocol.

[The Backward OX]

Ilasir

My question is genuine curiosity, not an attempt at flippancy. And of course it’s altogether possible that I’m way off track in my thinking.

Do you have, or has anyone close to you ever suggested that you may have, any personality disorders? I do, and although I’m not a published author I can identify with nearly everything you say here in this thread. What you exhibit, in your desire for detail and precise understanding, is classic behaviour by a person suffering from Asperger’s Syndrome. Of course, knowing whether or not you have it is not going to alter you one iota, but it occurred to me that if it IS so, and if others knew of it too, you might possibly receive more favourable treatment from critics. Or maybe that’s just wishful thinking – another classic Aspie habit.
ps thnnx for putting me right about #10

[Cran]

Originally Posted by Selorian

Ah, no, the point wasn't made. There has been quite a bit of back-peddling here as to what was or wasn't meant.
[if you say so ...]
I never give a critique that I don't give my reasons for any suggestions I make right in the critique. If that isn't enough, then what more can I do? Take the time to justify my reasons further while the person makes snide remarks about the grammar I used in the critique? That is what it appears Ilasir does. Do you think that instills a desire in anyone to want to offer further critiques?
[further critiques were not the issue, only finishing the ones already begun - if you want to avoid offering further critiques, then ignore that poster's future threads ...]

Snide remarks and a sense of superiority by Ilasir over those offering the best help they can is what smacks of poor forum protocol.

Does anyone, or everyone, who questions some point you've made, do so with snide remarks or insults?

Have you never encountered someone, perhaps not blessed with your insight or vocabulary, who asked you to clarify your previous post?
Or to indicate a preference where more than one option is suggested?

Selorian, is there a reason (besides being the OP, or some personal antipathy) that you have personalised your remarks, rather than addressing the topic as a general issue?

Ilasir is not the only member of the forum, and not the only one who has (inadvertantly or otherwise) caused offense in a post ...

As many have said before, the members of this forum run the gamut of skills, experience, and personalities ... and because the visual and aural dimensions of communication are almost non-existent here, sometimes we need to grant some leeway ... or ask if offense was meant ...

I thought the whole point of this forum thing is to foster dialogue, and improve our ability to communicate?

[map101ca]

Selorian hit the nail on the head. I spent two hours going line by line through a story I...(i didn't want to say, but) didn't like. It was my forth post on this board and I tried to put my feelings aside and even thought to put the disclaimer in in case it came off wrong.

I have no problem backing anything I have to say, but will not continue in a farse that was unneeded to turn the way it did. If your looking for a spacific critique, then state so. If not, then accept what you get and be thankful. It would have gotten farther and I would have had no problem explaining myself.

Now you dragged this on for 4 pages in the story and 6 pages here, get over it and move on. As I have for the second time now.

Bye.

[Ilasir Maroa]

Map- I'm not sure how you posting to say you're not gonna drag this out (and that I have, and implying that I'm a pathetic loser who is mad becuase you gave what you think was a harsh critique) is not dragging this out... but whatever. There was more involved in this than you, so I wouldn't get all egotistical and act like this was all cause I didn't like your critique. I'm not gonna spend more time arguing with Selorian over this, so if anyone else wants to put up any opinions that's fine, but hopefully this will be my last post here.


Anyway, BO(um, no offense intended, that's just how your initials come out), no I do not have Asperger's Syndrome, I just refuse to change something because someone says to without a reason(as has happended in cases besides Map's).

Selorian- just becuase you understand your reasons doesn't mean the other person does, so if they ask for more explanation, it is likely that they actually don't understand, and would like at least one more chance to find out what you meant. It can be hard for someone to change something that they thought was fine, especially if the reason you gave was vague to them. So if you don't feel like spending a little time to help them understand, then say so and don't; but I think this goes back to the skill level question, and it seems to me that what you are saying is that if they aren't experienced enough or at a high enough level to understand your critiques with no extra discussion, you think it's a waste of time to try and help such a low-level writer. I could be wrong though, and so I am asking for a clarification on your meaning, and stating that I don't mean any offense.

[SeanFields]

I think you are all funny......

[The Backward OX]

Ilasir

This is not a direct response to your post, but allied to it. To those who think they’ve read it before, I apologise for repeating myself.

Recently there was a posting to the Critique and Advice forum seeking feedback on some supposed non-fiction written as fiction.

Normally I would not have become involved. But this writing was so execrably bad I could not help myself, and part of my comment was to that effect - that the piece had been extremely poorly prepared. The OP in turn criticised me for my criticism, saying, inter alia, “Isn't this the "critique" category, where works would normally be a little "f*&ked up"?”, and “ yes, I was not as careful as I should have been. I wouldn't have needed to post it on this forum if it had been in mint condition.”

I had recently undertaken a college course in short story writing; the lecturer hammered away at the notion that drafts needed to be revised, polished and re-written over and over again, long before other eyes saw them. Currently, I have been visiting web-sites to glean more information on writing generally; again, a basic message on many of them was to re-write drafts at least twice—i.e., making a total of at least three—before the work sees the light of day.

As I pen this, I’ve looked up more websites for information on the subject. One, from NYU, says, amongst other things, “Overall, the writing samples should represent the best the applicant has to offer and the work most indicative of her/his aptitude”.

My response to the OP had included the words; “My view, for what it’s worth, is that if anything is worth doing, it’s worth doing well.” Note that I had italicised “anything”. I might expand on that here, by saying, for example, that if one has any standards and/or knows anything about first impressions, they wouldn’t go on a blind date looking scruffy and untidy, or advertise their car for sale without first washing and polishing it, or invite friends home to dinner for the first time without removing the motor-bike parts from the dining room floor (or table!) beforehand. And this leads to the obvious thought – why is it (apparently) acceptable to exhibit lack of interest in doing things well and in first impressions, when it comes to submitting drafts for appraisal?

In turn, this leads on to remarks already made by others in this thread – or, more correctly, to another way of looking at what others have already said here. Work that follows the principle I’ve just outlined should be publisher-ready. Critiques provided here are only for those suffering self-doubt.

[SeanFields]

You guys are silly billys