How The Low Standards of Critiques Affect Writers on this Forum

[Shawn]

Originally Posted by The Backward OX

Forgive my ignorance, but could you explain what you mean by "the purpose of the writing"?

Like Olly has already said, I get a lot of comments on the style, but I rarely get comments on the content.

When I write something, I write to express an idea important to me, and pointless pieces are few and far between. I don't really care if I sound like the first Minister for Wales giving his acceptance speech, I care if the reader gets what I'm trying to say.

[mammamaia]

Quote:
Originally Posted by mammamaia
[re: "word"]...that's a new one on me!

an example of its use in popular culture turns up during a couple of exchanges
between between Sgt Murtagh and his teenage son ...
I can't remember if it is in Lethal Weapon 2 (C.1989) or LW3 (C.1992) ...

but I understand that these are not the sort of movies you would watch, mamma ...

not so, actually... i do watch them, i just won't help anyone write more of them... i've seen all the lethal weapon flicks [and yes, lin, i do remember whatever i've seen/heard/read/etc.], but didn't get that the 'word' exchange/s between murtaugh and his kid were referring to 'the good word' as in the bible... thought it was just a general reference to the kid smart/bad-mouthing or whatever...

[The Backward OX]

Ilasir Maroa

Blue is my commentary on your commentary on map’s commentary

Double space between paragraphs and dialog. This was very difficult to read this way. Some of the dialog mixed together and I didn't know who was saying what.Yeah, I know.I'm just not used to pasting stuff into the post box, and I forgot the default spacing is crap. There IS a button called Preview Post, plus the facility with your cursor and the Enter key to open up spacing between paragraphs.

[Lost in Some Story]

Reading this thread is fulfilling in that slowing-down-to-watch-a-car-wreck sort of way.

[Ilasir Maroa]

Originally Posted by The Backward OX

Ilasir Maroa

Blue is my commentary on your commentary on map’s commentary

Double space between paragraphs and dialog. This was very difficult to read this way. Some of the dialog mixed together and I didn't know who was saying what.Yeah, I know.I'm just not used to pasting stuff into the post box, and I forgot the default spacing is crap. There IS a button called Preview Post, plus the facility with your cursor and the Enter key to open up spacing between paragraphs.

When it involves posting something like a long story, I cut and paste from Microsoft Word, and excuse me for not clicking "preview post" Number Ten Ox. I went back and fixed it after... so it's not like I was saying "shut up you nit-picking, meanie bastard" or something.

[ClancyBoy]

Originally Posted by Shawn

Like Olly has already said, I get a lot of comments on the style, but I rarely get comments on the content.

When I write something, I write to express an idea important to me, and pointless pieces are few and far between. I don't really care if I sound like the first Minister for Wales giving his acceptance speech, I care if the reader gets what I'm trying to say.

Some people can't comment on content because they don't really get content. That's fine, that's just what some people have to offer. Go read the reviewer's own stuff. If he's a mechanics monkey who didn't "get" your story, more than likely you'll hate what he writes, too.

chris54321 writes reviews that put my teeth on edge. chris54321 writes sci-fi. I hate sci-fi. I don't think the two of us will ever see eye to eye on what makes a good story.
At the very least I have one other person's opinion, and I know that my writing doesn't have universal appeal. So what else is new?

When I want a certain kind of review, I find authors whose writing I like and give them the kind of thoughtful reviews and praise I would want to get. Most of them will reciprocate.
It's kind of a gift culture around here. You get out of it about 50-75% of what you put into it.

[Selorian]

Ilasir,

Personally, if I had spent the time to give the critique map gave your piece and got the reply from you he did, I wouldn't be in any hurry to give you another. He gave his reasons for each point he made right in the critique. Just because they didn't meet your criteria doesn't make the fact he did void.

I know what you're(Once again, I am not bothered by your critique, as I find it it very useful to improving the story, but do try to practice what you preach, even in this sort of post; it's good to get into the habit of good grammar, so that you always use it.) trying to do here, but it's coming off all wrong. Backrounds need to be just that, backrounds. Write about the hussel and bussel of the market, and even write about the noisieness of it; But not this way please.

2+2=4 Don't tellWhat? This part is from the boy's perspective. It is ealry in the morning. If you mean that just saying, "not long after dawn" is enough, I suppose I see what you mean. But I think that having both reinforces the point(these people get up early) and has a smooth flow. If you disagree, then do tell me, and I'll give it another hard look.

Also, even though his grammar isn't the best, he was trying to help you when he pointed out spelling mistakes. The comment you made above just seems childish and vindictive, especially when you yourself make a mistake in the very next section, as italicized and colored orange.

Just my thoughts.

[Shawn]

Originally Posted by ClancyBoy

Some people can't comment on content because they don't really get content. That's fine, that's just what some people have to offer. Go read the reviewer's own stuff. If he's a mechanics monkey who didn't "get" your story, more than likely you'll hate what he writes, too.

Yes, but I'm not too sure whether or not I want a review from someone who doesn't know how to do an analysis or not. Am I right in thinking that literary analysis is taught in late primary nearly everywhere?

[Ilasir Maroa]

Clancy is right, that is how it pretty much works. One of the reasons I put up this thread was to see if anyone was interested in trying to improve their critiqueing skills, so that everyone, including them could get more informative critiques. On the other hand, I try to give as many people as I can critiques on their stories, becuase I know that everyone can use as little help, and whether they can return the favor at the same level or not, it's a good way to build up a network of people who you can ask to give you a critique when you aren't getting as many as you'd like. That's right, I do consider myself to be a giving person... you wanna fight about it? lol.

[Ilasir Maroa]

Originally Posted by Selorian

Ilasir,

Personally, if I had spent the time to give the critique map gave your piece and got the reply from you he did, I wouldn't be in any hurry to give you another. He gave his reasons for each point he made right in the critique. Just because they didn't meet your criteria doesn't make the fact he did void.



Also, even though his grammar isn't the best, he was trying to help you when he pointed out spelling mistakes. The comment you made above just seems childish and vindictive, especially when you yourself make a mistake in the very next section, as italicized and colored orange.

Just my thoughts.

Well, I was mostly kidding, not being vindictive. I have noticed that not everyone appreciates my humor, but I can't help unleashing it upon my hapless victims. I did apologize later for the grammar jokes. While I was writing it, I read it as being said in a joking manner. But... rereading it later, in light of Map's response, I realized that it probably did come across as vindictive within the context. I guess I need to be more careful what with the tone-deletion that is so common when posting on the internet.

As to the second point, I was presenting my position at the time(which later changed, partially due to his critique), and asking whether it had some ground under it, or whether he thought I should definitely go ahead and rewrite it. I did in fact, including the second quote you quoted(lol) acknowledge his points, and in most cases I made the suggested changes. In some areas I was trying to get further input, and I don't see what's wrong with that.


As I stated earlier, I am perfectly willing to accept the mistakes I made with my response. I learn from them just like I learn from a critique. The reason I didn't originally put up the quotes is because I encountered at least one similar incident, without the same context that put a shadow on the first experience. Again I apologize for the way some of my comments may have sounded to map.

[ClancyBoy]

Originally Posted by Shawn

Yes, but I'm not too sure whether or not I want a review from someone who doesn't know how to do an analysis or not. Am I right in thinking that literary analysis is taught in late primary nearly everywhere?

I never learned literary analysis

So, you get a lot of analyses that you don't need and that don't help you. This is to prepare you for when your publisher puts a promotional blurb on the jacket of your first book by an author you hate calling it a "wacky, sassy romp."

I believe you can learn something from every review, even if all you learn is that the reviewer is an unschooled illiterate cretin. At least you know how your book will be received by unschooled cretins. That's not completely useless information.

[Selorian]

Originally Posted by Ilasir Maroa

On the other hand, I try to give as many people as I can critiques on their stories, because I know that everyone can use as little help, and whether they can return the favor at the same level or not, it's a good way to build up a network of people who you can ask to give you a critique when you aren't getting as many as you'd like.

So, to insure you receive a certain amount of critiques, you would ask a person who gives critiques you don't necessarily see as useful to give one if other members weren't giving any? Is the quantity of critiques (or the number of replies a piece of posted work here on the forum receives) more important than the quality of critique? Since this thread is all about inadequate critiques, I find that rather humorous.

Most people here could use improvement in the area of critiquing, myself included. But to try to hold everyone to the same level of critique as you yourself gives is the same as telling everyone they need to write just like you do. Everyone approaches it differently and are at varying levels, so you have to be prepared for that and realize that there isn't one universal way to critique.

[Ilasir Maroa]

(A note: you're coming across in a very unfalttering way, at least imo. You should be very careful to make sure your tone isn't unecessarily ofensive or patronizing Selorian.)


You're missing the point Selorian. I don't mind getting critiques that aren't perfect. I learn at least something from all of them. And it's not about getting a certain amount of critiques either. Just because I think that the level of critiqueing on this thread can improve, doesn't mean I don't think critiques at whatever level have value. I just think that level can be raised.

As to the second point, I don't hold everyone to the same standard of critique; I'm not sure where you got that. I simply ask people to try and elaborate on a certain point I think is important as best they can. What I object to is not the level of critique, but response I get when asking for more information. If I'm new authors are expected to be able to handle responses to their stories that they don't like, critiquers should be able to handle a simple question as to some point of their critique, without pontificating on how to take a critique you don't like, or getting all defensive because I disagreed with something they have said.

[Hodge]

Literary analysis is not a critique. Literary analysis is a method of trying to find out what a piece is "really" about. Critiquing is simply finding strengths and weaknesses of the piece and offering advice on how to fix it.

The two are completely different.

[valeca]

I know what you're(Once again, I am not bothered by your critique, as I find it it very useful to improving the story, but do try to practice what you preach, even in this sort of post; it's good to get into the habit of good grammar, so that you always use it.)

(A note: you're coming across in a very unfalttering way, at least imo. You should be very careful to make sure your tone isn't unecessarily ofensive or patronizing, Selorian.)

Practicing what you preach is a two-way street. If you're going to be condescending to someone else (ie: in map's critique), make sure your glass house is in order first.

If you want improvement, lead by example.