How The Low Standards of Critiques Affect Writers on this Forum

[Ilasir Maroa]

oops...

[Shawn]

I'm generally pleased with the critiques on this forum, however, I would like to see some more focus on the purpose of the writing, rather than the stylistic elements. I don't often get to discuss the merits of the theme I present or what I'm trying to say.

That being said, that might be bad news for some, because most of what I read hardly has any emotional value at all, but excellent stylistic elements. So it would probably be best to balance critiques in a way that it hits all points of the story, rather than magnify one portion.

It's probably also best to remember that if you give a critique that takes the bad and the bad, not the bad and the good, writers are going to think that the whole work is worthless.

I'm not sure if this has been said yet, but as I said two years ago: "It's almost twelve and I have to go to lunch."

[lin]

I agree with your comments here. I think this whole "low standards" thing is pretty silly, actually. What is this guy looking for? Where are his standards established? My guess is, somebody trashed a favorite passage.

[Olly Buckle]

The idea of improving the forum has got to be good no matter what the reasons for the original proposal lin, by the way Ilisar may be sensitive, but I don't think she is unfair. How about a thread where people post critique they admire or have found helpful along with the reasons for it. I might just go and start one

[Ilasir Maroa]

Originally Posted by lin

I agree with your comments here. I think this whole "low standards" thing is pretty silly, actually. What is this guy looking for? Where are his standards established? My guess is, somebody trashed a favorite passage.

Haha, very funny Lin. Not true, and even if they had, I wouldn't care. What I was refering to was the lack of depth in many critques, and often the downright hostility I have encountered when asking for clarification on parts of a critique. I know that not everyone can give me the critique I want, whether that means a positive one, or an in-depth and insightftul one, and I appreciate anyone who takes the time to read my stuff. But just because this forum is about learning to write, shouldn't mean that all critiques posted are inviolate, and unquestionable; in fact, it means the opposite: few of them are perfect and the critiquer should know how good their critiques are, and accept that they could probably use improvement. If you put up a critique, you should be able to handle the response to it, just like authors here are told that they should be able to handle a critque of theirn work. If I ask: "Could you clarify why you don't think this word works here?", I don't want to hear a lecture about how to take tough critiques, becuase the critiquer is clueless or unable to express the reason. I want my questioned answered to the best of the critiquer's ability, which, as far as i am concerned, means anything from an in-depth analysis of why it won't fit, to a simple "I just don't like it." Either is fine if that's the best they can do.

I am not going to attack someone just because I don't like their critique. I am going to try and get the most I can out of it. If they don't want to elaborate, all they have to do is say so.

[mammamaia]

Quote:
Originally Posted by mammamaia
what word?

modern colloquialism, mamma, possibly from -
"the good word"

similar to "you said it!" ...

...that's a new one on me!... now, 'oops' i got!!!

[Cran]

Originally Posted by Ilasir Maroa

I am not going to attack someone just because I don't like their critique. I am going to try and get the most I can out of it. If they don't want to elaborate, all they have to do is say so.

I think that's a good attitude to have, Ilasir ...
further, a critic who becomes defensive or abusive rather than providing explanation or evidence undermines the credibility of the critique,
and perhaps even calls into question the critic's original motive for posting ...

Originally Posted by mammamaia

[re: "word"]...that's a new one on me!

an example of its use in popular culture turns up during a couple of exchanges
between between Sgt Murtagh and his teenage son ...
I can't remember if it is in Lethal Weapon 2 (C.1989) or LW3 (C.1992) ...

but I understand that these are not the sort of movies you would watch, mamma ...

[lin]

Remember, more likely.

[The Backward OX]

Originally Posted by Shawn

I'm generally pleased with the critiques on this forum, however, I would like to see some more focus on the purpose of the writing

Forgive my ignorance, but could you explain what you mean by "the purpose of the writing"?

[Olly Buckle]

I think he means the subject matter, he is saying he gets comments about style but not content

[map101ca]

Ok I've watch this long enough. I am the Cratiquer that is being referenced here.

Your right, I did get offended and refuse to answer your questions, but it had nothing to do with not wanting to clarify my position. I pointed out the number of grammatical errors and claimed to not be an expert on the subject; But you attacked my grammer in turn. Why would I respond to you?

You didn't like some of the things I said, and in turn attacked the fact that I'm new here and basicly said I had no idea what I was doing. I'm sorry if you think it wrong of me to walk away and leave you to your story you think is already perfect. I see no point in trying to better your work if your just gonna be all defencive and aggressive to the person helping.

(let the map bash begin)

[lin]

So YOU have lowered the standards or critcism so vital and revered to this site. Don't you know that you OWE people free feedback on their work and have to give it to them the way they want it?????

Fie!

[map101ca]

lol

Lin I do so much enjoy your witizims throughout this board.

[Ilasir Maroa]

Originally Posted by map101ca

Ok I've watch this long enough. I am the Cratiquer that is being referenced here.

Your right, I did get offended and refuse to answer your questions, but it had nothing to do with not wanting to clarify my position. I pointed out the number of grammatical errors and claimed to not be an expert on the subject; But you attacked my grammer in turn. Why would I respond to you?

You didn't like some of the things I said, and in turn attacked the fact that I'm new here and basicly said I had no idea what I was doing. I'm sorry if you think it wrong of me to walk away and leave you to your story you think is already perfect. I see no point in trying to better your work if your just gonna be all defencive and aggressive to the person helping.

(let the map bash begin)

lol, I can tel you've been working that speech up for maximum impact. But, unfortunately, you are not the person necessarily being referenced here. I have come across the problem I was speaking of in other areas besides your critique.


Just to show what map is talking about, here are the quotes from our discussion. Besides my rather in bad taste jokes about his grammar, I don't see how iut was all that rude or defensive. In fact, I took quite a few of his suggestions, and acknowledged that I had made the refered-to mistakes.

Also, though a lot of peolpe will consider it nit-picking, I did in fact take offense at his rather condescending disclaimer. Honestly, he used all imperatives, not even saying it was just his opinion. "need improving" and he was trying to "better my work." Some things are just personality related, so I don't blame anyone who thinks that my diclaimer complaint was stupid.

Originally Posted by map101ca

I would like to say first off; Please don't take offence at anything I say. I'm purelly trying to better your work here, and am just pointing things out that need improving.

Anywho;

1) Double space between paragraphs and dialog. This was very difficult to read this way. Some of the dialog mixed together and I didn't know who was saying what.

2) Proof read for minor gammatical and spelling errors. I am not one to comment on grammer, but in this case it got quite annoying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilasir Maroa
will fall to our might.” The man who spoke stood arrayed in handsome

3) I know he spoke. Stop telling and more showing

Quote:
and ornate armor: golden metal over red silk and velvet.
This is showing.

Quote:
as his Priest addressed him in return.[/size][/font]
[font=Times New Roman][size=3]“How soon, Brother Captain?” the Priest asked,
4) Avoid reppetitiveness. Thats kinda like an old see spot run book. "See spot run. See spot stop..."

Quote:
disgusted and disgusting
nuf said

Quote:
The Captain flinched.
669,252) (Igive up on the numbers) Cut this and add it to the next paragraph

Quote:
“Perhaps you have you have misremembered it.”
nuf said

One thing I would like to note is that the captain and the priest sound totally identical. There dialog is the same and I would think they are twins.

Personally I would just add this to the first chapter and skip the prologue all together.

Quote:
************************************************** **********************
Quote:
men and women (for being a woman was no bar to status in what many called the “Progressive Kingdom” of Mazerage.).
Don't ever put anything you find important enough to write in you story in brakets. If it nessassry for the reader to know this then write it into the story, but never like this.

Quote:
His hope was in vain, but that will come later.
Show don't tell....hmmmm

Quote:
“Fresh fruit for sale! Apples and pears from Nolcara! Grapes and Mazra berries from Astelkit. As fresh as the day the charm was laid!”
Another:
“Come and get your fruit! Bananas from Azerat, cherries from Ekras! Only eight maf a pound!”
This was just a mess. Ok lets start with; Another. Another what? Is this a script or a story?

Quote:
As fresh as the day the charm was laid!
What? Somebody's charm got laid?

I know what your trying to do here, but it's coming off all wrong. Backrounds need to be just that, backrounds. Write about the hussel and bussel of the market, and even write about the noisieness of it; But not this way please.

Quote:
In the early morning, not long after dawn,
2+2=4 Don't tell

Quote:
“I’ve been hired to deliver packages to the Mages’ Barracks…” “There’s rumors of war in the Magelands…” “There were reports of the undead in the Rensfield again…” “Someone has finally bought that old house, the one they say was Elder-built.” “That’s old news, fool!”
Find another way to tell this infomation. If you MUST tell it in dialog, then break it up. This made my eyes bleed.

Quote:
had any intelligence. And he does. I know because I’ve dealt with him before.
Would you really say this to yourself? My point is that it needs to be realistic

Quote:
And this one will be worthless!
What one?

Quote:
Miyos held out a piece of paper with two circles of fresh, hot wax;
How did the wax stay hot? and if the wax was hot would Rinoc not have seen the paper before now? I know if I had a peice of paper with hot wax on it, I would be holding it with two hands so not to let it drip. The third circle is to get stamped by the tax man, but Miyos takes his kid to the sweet stalls first. Remind me how the wax stays hot?

I know I sounded harsh, but it has been my expierence that a pat on the back does no good when you are trying to improve something you know needs work. As I stated, I'm not trying to be mean; But am trying to better your story. I also would agree with the others who said that this would not be a good start to your book. You need to grab the reads and draw them in in the first paragraph and keep them there till the end of the chapter. Go into the mondane in latter chapters.

It has good potential and the world seems interesting to me. Ty for the read.

[quote=Ilasir Maroa] I'm quoting this to make it easier to adress all the points. Red is my commentary on your commentary.

Originally Posted by map101ca

I would like to say first off; Please don't take offence at anything I say. I'm purelly trying to better your work here, and am just pointing things out that need improving.I find this very disclaimer offensive. I'm not a newbie. When I first joined the site, I reviewed a lot of stuff here. I know how it works. And the reviews in poetry certainly harden you to criticsm, by which I mean you learn that people are just stating their honest feelings.

Anywho;

1) Double space between paragraphs and dialog. This was very difficult to read this way. Some of the dialog mixed together and I didn't know who was saying what.Yeah, I know. I'm just not used to pasting stuff into the post box, and I forgot the default spacing is crap.

2) Proof read for minor gammatical and spelling errors. I am not one to comment on grammer, but in this case it got quite annoying.People keep talking of grammar. I thought I had proofread, but I perhaps I need to beat my writing with a bigger stick to reveal all the unhealed breaches.(sorry for the crappy metaphor, lol, I mean that if you hit something hard enough the flaws will reveal themselves by crumbling the structure.)



3) I know he spoke. Stop telling and more showing.Well, sorry. You know someone had spoken. I was just trying to make it clear who. I'll try a different tack for this.



This is showing.



4) Avoid reppetitiveness. Thats kinda like an old see spot run book. "See spot run. See spot stop..."Okay, I'll try to cut down on the tags.



nuf saidNot sure what's wrong here. This part of the story is told from the Captain's perspective. He hears the priest's disgust at how long things are taking, and he is disgusted by the man's eagerness to slaughter people.


669,252) (Igive up on the numbers) Cut this and add it to the next paragraphCould you explain why? It would be better if I knew the reason, so that I wouldn't let this seeming mistake happen again.



nuf saidoops...

One thing I would like to note is that the captain and the priest sound totally identical. Their(Come now, just because you are critiquing me is no excuse to let your grammar go down the toilet.) dialog is the same and I would think they are twins.Really? Not sure I follow you. How is it identical?

Personally I would just add this to the first chapter and skip the prologue all together. Well, I was thinking of combining everything already posted into a prologue, as I've just realized it happens several years earlier than the rest of my original draft of the first chapter. Do you think that would work?





Don't ever put anything you find important enough to write in you story in brakets. If it nessassry for the reader to know this then write it into the story, but never like this.Sorry, I'll fix that.



Show don't tell....hmmmmYeah, I'll see about cutting that. It was meant as foreshadowing, but perhaps it would be best to let events speak for themselves.


This was just a mess. Ok lets start with; Another. Another what? Is this a script or a story?Well, I do tend to use a few weird conventions. And while I didn't steal the idea from Tolkein, his "The Children of Hurin" does contain several of those type of dialogue tags. Would it work better if I added ",said one." after the first fruitseller's sales pitch?



What? Somebody's charm got laid?Yes, though you may not have realized yet, this is a fantasy story, and magic will be involved, even in the everyday life of the kingdom.

I know what you're(Once again, I am not bothered by your critique, as I find it it very useful to improving the story, but do try to practice what you preach, even in this sort of post; it's good to get into the habit of good grammar, so that you always use it.) trying to do here, but it's coming off all wrong. Backrounds need to be just that, backrounds. Write about the hussel and bussel of the market, and even write about the noisieness of it; But not this way please.



2+2=4 Don't tellWhat? This part is from the boy's perspective. It is ealry in the morning. If you mean that just saying, "not long after dawn" is enough, I suppose I see what you mean. But I think that having both reinforces the point(these people get up early) and has a smooth flow. If you disagree, then do tell me, and I'll give it another hard look.



Find another way to tell this infomation. If you MUST tell it in dialog, then break it up. This made my eyes bleed.Why does it make your eyes bleed? I changed it a little from the original format. I thought it gave the impression of how random these snatches of conversation were. I am a very visual writer. Are you saying that I should have set it up in a normal dialogue format, and just let the "..." show the brokeness?



Would you really say this to yourself? My point is that it needs to be realistic
No of course not, though I have had similar structure of thoughts sometimes. However, that is exactly how I see Miyos thinking. Is it really so bad that you think I need to change it?


What one?The sack of grain. Do you think I should go into a long "telling" explanation to say why?



How did the wax stay hot? and if the wax was hot would Rinoc not have seen the paper before now? I know if I had a peice of paper with hot wax on it, I would be holding it with two hands so not to let it drip. The third circle is to get stamped by the tax man, but Miyos takes his kid to the sweet stalls first. Remind me how the wax stays hot?Well, you could always heat it up again, but in truth, it's a charmed paper. You get them from the king's taxmen, and pay a fee upon presentation. Again, I didn't want to ramble on into a long explanation of the culture of the kingdom. Do you think I should?

I know I sounded harsh, but it has been my expierence that a pat on the back does no good when you are trying to improve something you know needs work. As I stated, I'm not trying to be mean; But am trying to better your story. I also would agree with the others who said that this would not be a good start to your book. You need to grab the reads and draw them in in the first paragraph and keep them there till the end of the chapter. Go into the mondane in latter chapters. There are different styles of writing. Have you ever read Robert Jordan's "Wheel of Time"? It has a similar opening style.

It has good potential and the world seems interesting to me. Ty for the read.Say what? What is "ty"?[/quote]

Well, you had several useful points, and I thank you for the critique.

But there was one continuous problem with it. You spent a lot of time time telling me what you would do, or what you thought, without showing me why. It's much more useful if I know the reasons for all the changes you suggested, so that I can apply the to the rest of the piece, and not make the same mistakes again.

Originally Posted by map101ca

Wow...you want a critique of a critique of a critique...What the f...

Look; It was my understanding that posts of stories in the Critique and Advise thread were stories people wanted to know what other people thought of the work. I'm not your publisher and anything I write here is mute in the grand sceam(spl?) of things.

I may be a noobie HERE, but rest assured that this is not my first critque. Furthermore, I put that disclaimer in at the begining so that you would sort of understand that; But if you choose to take offence to it, thats your porogitive(spl?).

On that note, you need not worry about my critiques of your work any more.

I still ty for the read.

Originally Posted by map101ca

I do believe that all my points required no more explaining(ha!), but I'll do this quickly.

First off, I know how hard it is to receive critizim for your hard work. Even if you want it. Understand that as a writer myself, the disclaimer was put in knowing how I critique. I go through a story line by line. I feel that if I point out everything I see, it will show you some things maybe you never thought of as bothersome to the reader. Whether you listen to me or not is entirely up to you. It's your story not mine; And matters not to me.

Having seen all the information on the specific case map is refeing to, I leave it up to the reader to make a decision. If everybody thinks I was out of line, the I will apologize(for the fourth time).

[Raging_Hopeful]

Well.... going back to what Ox said, the potential for misunderstandings in electronic communication (and ANY communication for that matter) are HUGE. That seems to be the #1 issue I encounter on any forum where people converse. Arguments and long-standing grudges are often based upon simple miscommunications and conflict of personalities. I like your attitude Ilasir and I think you're being upfront with your questions and thoughts... that alone would make me inclined to listen to you... but remember, we can only do our best and hope that others will as well. Standards are all subjective just as opinions are like... well, you know the saying. It is unfortunate you have encountered such resistance and in some cases hostility but I feel confident that many of the forum-goers here are not cast of the same stuff.

Thank you for your contribution and I'll keep an eye out for your work.

Cheers,
Linz