Critique Forum Overload

[aliceedelweiss]

I think enforcing rules like title things with Title, genre, word out like you suggested is good. But making it a rule? I already see people who don't follow the current rules, how could you get them to follow all of THOSE? I see sigs longer than 4 lines, putting things in two areas, begging for critiques. Newbies seem to skip right over the rules and just do as the please (no offense newbies!!! I love you guys, some of you just don't pay attention) so How could you honestly get them to follow more if they don't follow the ones we have already?

Also, As far as I can tell this is only affecting the critique/advice section. I think as long as I've been here, that area has always been crazy, and you have to hunt through it. But thats how it is. and unless you can get more than half of the active members to agree with you whole heartedly, I doubt anything will come of it.

Rarely does this place change and I love it that way. Status Quo.

Alice

[Talia_Brie]

I agree Alice. If you scroll through this fourm you will see these same suggestions being made over and over again.

All you can do is try to set a good example by doing these things yourself.

I very much doubt there will be rule changes, because we do not have the ability of the patience to police them.

[ghent96]

Could I simplify, possibly oversimplify, and preface this by saying that I really am not a mean person at all: "If a newbie spams up a critique forum post, bumps, doesn't follow the rules, etc; then just delete their thread and send them a warning PM"

How else can mentors, moderators, and admins enforce the rules? By asking nicely? Sure, that's a first step, but ALL members should take a quick minute to read the rules, new or not! If they can't manage that simple task.... DELETE!

In Fiction, Critique, and Poetry, there is also some ambiguity in the forum descriptions, such that I-who-read-the-rules am not sure where to post something. Clarifying or updating these descriptions would help. Moderators/Admins, please take 1 minute to hit that Forum Control Panel link, then edit the forum groups/order, and edit the descriptiosn

In these same forums there is also that previously mentioned problem of overload. Some posters are great people, I'm sure, but EVERY DAY they come up with 20 more poems or short story bits to post. That's ridiculous. This is a forum for all of us, not just THEM. Encourage these users maybe or make a new rule that they should post new/similar work on the same thread.

If users that visit everyday are finding the current situation overwhelming, imagine how those of us that visit once a week feel? Very, very overwhelmed. I've got over 81 works already typed up and ready to "spam" out all over if I wanted, but I don't want to. I'm not like that. Some people are, however, and need to be simultaneously encouraged to share their work in the right way and discouraged from overloading the forums.

[aliceedelweiss]

I dunno If I agree with you. I understand you are not being mean with your suggestion to delete, but that is a little harsh. Some people just don't know, don't pay attention, and don't read the rules with no intention of doing anything but posting there work and getting reviews about it. They aren't doing it to be stupid.

Also, you talk about all these people that "come up with 20 more poems or short story bits to post." like they too aren't apart of the forum? I understand what you mean, its annoying. But If the people who come up with 20 short stories a day are annoying you, have them post in short story! I watch every new piece that comes in there in hopes of critiquing it (which I normally do) and even on the weekends I don't see that much of a rise, so why can't they just post there?

I just thinks its kind of harsh to say those people aren't a part of the forum "spammers" or not. I understand the point your trying to make, but its everyones forum. Besides, I know how it works. If they keep it up (posting 20 things a day, not critiquing in return etc.) they'll get disappointed and leave. And its no bodies fault but theirs. They'll be mad the couldn't get critiques. That happened to me the first time I joined the forum, and then I came back with a determination to be better. now look at me!

I don't know what we should do about it, I think this will get us no where. Like I said before, it takes A LOT of good reasoning from a lot of people to get them to change anything on here. so, just try convincing more people we need it, get more people to post here agreeing. I'm not saying I want this or don't want it, but if you really want it go tell people about the idea, so that more will come and voice their opinion. The more people want it, the more likely there will be a change.

Alice

[Selorian]

Originally Posted by K-P

It's sloppy; in fact, most of WF is sloppy and lacks structure.
~
Frankly, I haven't used writingforums to post a story in some time. I'm tired of it, I'm tired of people spamming storiesand then bumping those spammed posts. It's messy, it's amatuer, and this really isn't the way a writing forum should be.
~
I'm simply making the point that a lack of structure, a lack of rules, will plunge this forum into a chaotic mess.
~
The best forums have strict rules. Take, for example, the Penny-Arcade forums. The mods there are tough, and there are stringent rules as to what and how to post, but it is a great forum, easy to search through and to maintain a discussion.

These quotes are interesting, K-P.

First, WF must be doing something right for you to still be here. Second, if it is so bad, and there are better forums out there, then why are you still here and not there? Neither of these are meant to be sarcastic or mean, rather, they are merely questions that come to mind when reading comments like yours.

Originally Posted by K-P

There seems to be a jump in usage. Two months ago, the lack of rules for posting threads wasn't really a problem. Now it is. Now the critique forum is a mess. The Admins have to straighten this mess up, or they will most definately lose some of this forum's veteran members.

This same argument has been made many times over. Yes, member activity levels raise and lower, forum posting becomes more active, and critique levels rise and fall. It has always been that way and always will be that way. And those who don't like it will leave, but those who stay will learn the patterns and how things work. There are still many veteran members here and they have seen this type of things happen many times.

Originally Posted by Omnius

A lot of the people joining here are complete novices. If they crash something out in 20 minutes and post it for comments, well, no-one is forced to crit, but who knows, they may get advice on what they posted that helps them become that little bit better than they were before they posted. It's a long road and some are just setting out.

Exactly. I think this fact is the biggest appeal of WF. We welcome members of all skill levels. Each member is welcomed with open arms and encouraged to post. If they need to learn the basics, there are members to help them. If they need advice because they are ready to publish, again, there are members to help them. WF is non-exclusive, and making it that way will kill the site as it is today.



Now, enough with commenting on quotes.

Many of your points are reasonable, and many are already covered in rules, guidelines, or 'how-to' pieces located at the top of forums or in the Writing 101 forum. The staff try to keep the worst violations off the boards, but if people don't read to know this now, then what will more rules accomplish?

Also, many of your points for reasoning seem to be off. Let's take the weekend increase in posting for example. Today is Friday, and I have already noticed a decrease in posting. It is the same all weekend. If you want a piece commented on, don't post on the weekend because the activity level isn't as high as it is during the week.

As for unanswered posts, here is a novel solution. Click the link below your avatar that reads unanswered posts. Answer some of them. In fact, I challenge everyone to do that at least once per day and answer at least one post. It would be no time and it would read 'No posts' or whatever other wording may come up if there isn't any.

Last, it is very true here that 'what you get is what you give'. If you aren't doing many critiques, then that may be the reason you aren't getting many yourself. People will generally return the favor, even if they have to search for your work. And if they are only sure enough about themselves to say that they liked or disliked it, then that is one more bit of information you have that you didn't before. If they are comfortable and sure enough in themselves and their skills as writers to give an indepth critique, all the better. And if they do that, then they definitely deserve the same time and effort in return on their work.

Just some thoughts for the discussion.

[K-P]

Forumers here should be allowed to post their work, Alice. You're right. Even if they have 20 short stories, they have the right to post them.

The problem is that people are posting fragments, bits and pieces. Some people post even before they give their own work a proofread. They repost revisions. This is what's annoying.

I guess if the mods won't do anything about it, then nothing will be done. But, I wonder: what is their job? Are they here to make the forums run smoothly? If so, then I would imagine that they would police the forums a bit more. If mods are here only to offer assistance, or to delete flagrant and offensive posts, then I suppose there is nothing that can be done. So, I guess that's the question. Mods, what does your job entail?

First, WF must be doing something right for you to still be here. Second, if it is so bad, and there are better forums out there, then why are you still here and not there? Neither of these are meant to be sarcastic or mean, rather, they are merely questions that come to mind when reading comments like yours.

I enjoy this forum, and I do use two other writing based forums as well. This is how the idea came to me, because the other forums are very organized. Although one is a completely different format, the other has many thousands of users and is very strict in their application of the rules. Also, the rules are posted as a sticky on each forum, so users have no excuse not to read them.

I'm not saying this is a bad forum, but I just believe that this could be better.

Exactly. I think this fact is the biggest appeal of WF. We welcome members of all skill levels. Each member is welcomed with open arms and encouraged to post. If they need to learn the basics, there are members to help them. If they need advice because they are ready to publish, again, there are members to help them. WF is non-exclusive, and making it that way will kill the site as it is today.

I agree too. But a person should at least take the time to fix some of the glaring mistakes in their posts. A proofread is all I'm asking. That's it. I don't care if a forumer posted the first story they had every written, they should be able to find most of the spelling mistakes themselves.

Many of your points are reasonable, and many are already covered in rules, guidelines, or 'how-to' pieces located at the top of forums or in the Writing 101 forum.

As I said, there should be a rules sticky on each forum. This will be helpful to new members. For example, most of them don't know that they should put spaces between paragraphs. With a rules sticky, they wouldn't have any excuse not to know this.

Today is Friday, and I have already noticed a decrease in posting.

Perhaps I'm off here. Hmm...

Last, it is very true here that 'what you get is what you give'. If you aren't doing many critiques, then that may be the reason you aren't getting many yourself.

This is the way it is with every writing forum. But, I doubt many users will actively search for posts of people who crit them. I'm sure some do, and I'm sure that those who do are the most kind-hearted people in the world. But most don't do this. It's a hassle.

And if they are only sure enough about themselves to say that they liked or disliked it, then that is one more bit of information you have that you didn't before. If they are comfortable and sure enough in themselves and their skills as writers to give an indepth critique, all the better.

As I've said, people who write are, by definition, readers. One does not have to be a good writer to critique a story thoroughly, to comment on the plot, the characters, the way the sentences flow, etc. Someone shouldn't be forced to give a thorough critique, but it should at least be suggested.

[ghent96]

Originally Posted by K-P

6) Chapters, or Parts of a Long Serial Story
I think it should be fine to post each chapter in a seperate thread. However, the chapter number/story part should be labeled clearly in the subject line.

I definitely agree that they MUST be labled in the subject line, but this can be done inside of a thread, using the post title. It's a nice feature here, to be able to title individual posts differently. We should USE IT I disagree on starting a new thread. Chapters of a long/serial should just go inside the same thread, with different post titles to indicate what chapter. If/when a lot of forum users are all updating their long/serials at the same time, this avoids us having 100 new threads across 3+ forum pages, and 2/3 of them never get seen or reviewed. It is then easier to find the story's thread, then navigate inside that thread for the properly titled chapter that you wish to find.

[Selorian]

We make sure that there aren't influxes of twenty posts of their own work per day by members, we send PM's to warn members of violations, we check for spam, we try to make things run smoothly, and we step in when things get out of hand. That is what we do.

[ghent96]

Originally Posted by aliceedelweiss

...Some people just don't know, don't pay attention, and don't read the rules with no intention of doing anything but posting there work and getting reviews about it. They aren't doing it to be stupid....

I don't know what we should do about it, I think this will get us no where. Like I said before, it takes A LOT of good reasoning from a lot of people to get them to change anything on here. so, just try convincing more people we need it, get more people to post here agreeing. I'm not saying I want this or don't want it, but if you really want it go tell people about the idea, so that more will come and voice their opinion. The more people want it, the more likely there will be a change.

Alice

The fact is they ARE being stupid, though. Plus, if they don't read the rules and all they do is come in and "spam" out 1, or 2, or 20 posts... what kind of forum member are they? What kind of _productive_ forum member are they? They're not! DELETE, Correct them, warn them, help them that way. Then once they're willing to USE half a brain, they can repost and have MUCH better luck getting a critique as well as giving them.

Again, not being malicious, but why make productive, serious forum members put up with a week of 20/day spam from these flitty newb-today-gone-tomorrow types until, as you state, they get discouraged at no responses despite their "hard efforts" of spamming and leave? That's not fair to the majority of established members. There are still a plethora of methods by which to recieve newbies with open arms and have them be productive members of the forums.

You may not know what to do about it, but other people do They're offering great suggestions here. All it takes is the initiative of the mod/admins staff to take action and do them.


Selorian - I absolutely agree on the suggestion to hit the "Unanswered Posts" link!!!! I try to, each time I visit, as well as keeping up on my subscribed forum list. That would be an excellent suggestion to add into one of the current sticky posts.

[nae411]

If each member takes into account the "rules" and how we each should post the forums will continue to run smoothly. Suggestions are always good and are taken into account. If ideas are given and it is felt that it will improve the forums, staff and admin are definately willing to make changes.

Thank you for your suggestions. I hope to see people following the guidelines so this place is never one that needs to be ruled by an iron hammer. Rules are posted for everyone and I think we all enjoy the casual, friendly atmosphere here. I believe most people feel this system works.

Nae

[ghent96]

The important word is " If " ... :\

PS - I just hit the Unanswered Posts link for today (June 9)...

"Showing results 1 to 25 of 500 "... :O

[Rob]

Thanks Nae.

[aliceedelweiss]

I come here almost every single day and not once have I been over run by newbie posts or annoyed. They don't bother me at all. I see a post in more than one area I comment "This only needs to be in one place, a mod should come around to delete this." I notice someone isn't reading over their work before they post it, I say "its etiquette to read over your work before you post, you can eliminate problems that way" I know they SHOULD read the rules and already know these, but they don't. what can we do about that? These 'spammers' or newbies are certainly not ruining my experience.

I agree they should follow the rules, but I don't really agree we should make more like I said before since they don't read the rules now and I don't see much of an increase during the weekend. In fact on Sundays, this place is dead.

For example, most of them don't know that they should put spaces between paragraphs. With a rules sticky, they wouldn't have any excuse not to know this.

I haven't checked, but I don't think this is a rule...its a guideline. Which means, it doesn't matter if they don't follow it. If you don't like it don't read.

I still don't think I understand the purpose behind this...Where is it going to get us? Organization? Good newbies?

I would like to see that but...More rules? I don't think it would benefit. All you can do is warn. And deleting I don't think is right. If your complaining about things coming out in piece, try to convince the mods to create an area for "unfinished" things or small pieces of work.

Alice

[K-P]

Alright alright. I can see that things will stay as they are, and that is no problem. Not everyone sees things the way I do (like, blind people for example), and I guess I can just stay away from the critique forum.

However, I do hope for at least some regulation in the workshop forum. I know it's not a problem now, but things tend to spill over, especially when people see they aren't getting the critiques they want from the critique forum. So, since the workshop forum is for more serious works (people, more or less, who are hoping to have their posted stories eventually published), then why would it be a bad idea to have a single mod police that forum and lock / warn users in violation of simple rules. If users don't wish to read the rules, then they can simply be warned and directed to a link of the rules (which should always be a sticky on the forum. I'm not sure why there are no sticky rules here.). After a warning, more severe actions could be taken for continuing infractions.

So, please, let us have one regulated forum. Hell, this can be a test, to see how well a forum with strict guidelines would fare against a forum with very few rules. This is perfect, since we do basically have two critique forums on this site.

try to convince the mods to create an area for "unfinished" things or small pieces of work.

That is why I previously said that there should be a sticky thread for small fragments of stories.

[aliceedelweiss]

I think that makes sense, to police the workshop area. Since like you said, its mostly for people fixing stuff up for publishing. Those people usually know how things work.

I think the reason it would be hard to police the forum is because the mods work behind the scenes, not up front all the time. They only do away with what they notice, or what is brought to their attention. maybe more mods are needed? I mean you look now, there is 1 super and 1 mod online, versus what, 20 members? how many are on right now? So maybe thats just it, more mods?

Alice