kad barma

or perhaps a musician trying to play something nice, but hitting a series of sour notes instead?

picasso turned conventional art on its ear, but he still learned to paint the traditional way before he struck out on his own. i'd suggest expressive writing of whatever kind should demand nothing less of its author. when you have full control of language, you can most effectively bend it to your artistic intent.

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Pawn

Bravo.

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TsuTseQ

Normally I'd be inclined to agree with you, but not today.

Not everyone paints from the time they're two, but most everyone speaks in one form or another. Language is the one creative art every person is involved in. By the time we begin writing it, we've intuitively learned its syntax through speech, but speech is imperfect compared to the hard-and-fast, complex and, often, outdated protocols we're told is English grammar. These sticky rules often impede authentic expression: for example, both Kad Barma and Pawn are guilty of writing sentence fragments (bad grammar slammers!), yet had either of you written full sentences, the impact of your words would have been diminished.

Some basic rules should be followed from the beginning for the sake of communication, the rest can be learned through experience and adopted through personal choice. What better experience is there than writing and having people critique your work?

And KB -- before you condescend to writers on this site about prepositions, perhaps you should learn that proper nouns and the first letter of a new sentence always require capitalization? Lead by example, if you must lead, and you might find others will follow.

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Mungye

Oh I do agree there must be rules. But I don't agree that the rules should inhibit that which comes from a person's heart and unique manner of doing things.It is like in the dance, I learned classical dance, very formal and with plenty of rules, and then I moved to more free dance and taught it. But I was surprised at how many of my students just naturally did certain things the way I was taught classically. I cannot really explain what I mean, but the fact is someone sometime started the rules and who is to say they were always right? But yes I agree with your comments.

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Pawn

As you well know, TsuTseQ, forum posting is conversational and by no means a reflection of ones writing proper. There is no justification for a writer's ignorance of the conventions of their trade, however aging. Breaking the rules is an integral aspect of creativity, yet one always better executed given an awareness of what one is breaking.

Edit: 6,000th post.

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kad barma

first of all, i'm appalled at how poorly i was understood. (it must be my writing). the discussion of prepositions wasn't intended as part of a critique, but rather as a separate pining for a place to be able to go in order to talk about how devilish they can be. (or, as strunk would write it: a place to talk about them). mea culpa for trying to kill two conversational birds with one un-capitalized and fragmented stone. i honestly did have a quandary about prepositions the other day, and wished i had a place to bounce them off other sticklers.

but here's the thing: you speak eloquently about the innate art of spoken language, but you quickly skip ahead to the differences in its written form. i agree we're all verbal artists, but i don't agree that we're all quite there when it comes to writing. if my sentences are hard to read, i wonder to myself if it's sometimes because i intend them to be that way so that only folks who really want to understand them will succeed. (no capital letters goes just that much further in that direction, yes?) but if others are hard to read, it's often because they fail to distinguish between homonyms (they're, their, there, etc.) don't ensure subject/verb agreement (bobby and i was going to the store) misunderstand subjects vs objects (bobby and me was going to the store) or fall into any number of other pitfalls, including tautology (my own private personal and most-very-frequent failing). when you add up all the challenges in spelling, punctuation and grammar, it too often becomes that sour-note symphony i alluded to earlier. (to which i alluded earlier?)

me, i'd love to have a place to get help from other language enthusiasts, and, yes, sometimes, have a safe place from which to make fun of the philistines. (not make fun of the philistines from). the best part about such a forum is that it would drive the less diligent to distraction, and they wouldn't likely hang around there much. (they'd be welcome, though!)

just my 2 cents...

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TsuTseQ

Kad Barma -- I apologize for the misunderstanding, perhaps it was the grand tone I was unable to navigate around. You're right, a corner in Writing 101 for those who wish to discuss the finer points of archaic usage is a good idea. The philistines would then have a safe place to learn grammmar at their own gentle pace, and an area from which to make fun of the language enthusiasts.

Pawn -- Archaic rules are a fascination for those of a philological mindset, and modern writers wishing to emulate classical works; the application of these protocols is limited for many modern writers.

As I said in my previous post, basic grammatical rules are necessary for communication. That they do not apply to electronic media where conversational style supersedes grammar, is interesting. This will likely have an enormous influence on future generations of writers (as new young writers already almalgamate this style in their writing), and continue to weaken the latinate syntax superimposed on our germanic toungue. I look forward to it.

To insist that creativity stems merely from knowing the rules and breaking them is pure poppycock. There are those who have an instinct for language use, even in written form, who are ignorant of grammar rules. To insist they discipline their comma usage before writing creatively is simply snobbish.

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Mungye

Here here.
I often think of the writer O Henry and how really limited he was in any sort of learning. Put in prision for theft, broken, he began to write. Of course he is no Tolstoy or Lawrence, but the simple beauty and stark imagery of his work along with the deep emotion are breathtaking to me. I never forgot his stories, they still influence me in certain areas of my life. If any one can have someone tell them that about their work it would seem to me to be a sure sign that commas or not they have hit the mark.
Having said that I suppose I shall join an after hours class and work on proper sentence structure and whatnot.......just to be safe!

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Pawn

Forgive me, you seem to be replying to some fictitious post of indefinite origin. Certainly whichever text you are responding to has little in common with the perfectly simple, perfectly reasonable point that I so recently proposed. Dismiss linguistics, etymology, convention and history just as much as you like; only your words will carry the fault.

Squabbling aside, this thread finished some pages ago. Please feel at liberty to open the recent debate to the appropriate forum.

It should be briefly noted that a forum concerned with phonology would simply not be used enough to warrant its space on the homepage. A pleasant ideal somewhat lacking in practicality.

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