hobbish

Without a big Russian Bugaboo would Hitler have ver come to power? It's a bit generalistic but the middle classes widely voted for Hitler becuase they were afraid of communism. I'm just saying, it's a possibility. The idea that communism would take off somewhere else is my point. The ammount of time it would take is debatable.

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SteveDunster

Hitler is killed because his opponents realise Germany can't win and that nobody will trust Hitler in a surrender situation. He has nothing to lose so he will fight to the last German. His opponents want to end the war whilst Germany is still strong which is why they hatch the plot.

Germany sues for peace but remains a strong sovereign nation. There are still war trials. There are still reparations. They keep their armed forces in tact but with strict guidelines as to their use. The Allies are still hurting from their overly-harsh treatment of the German nation after WWI and acknowledge that it created the opportunity for what became WWII, so they treat the surrendered German with a lot more dignity this time.

US business sees a great opportunity in the rebuilding of Europe in general and Germany in particular. There is no East/West Germany, it remains whole. The Soviets still have a great deal of Eastern Europe under their control.

The West is far more concerned about the Soviets than a resurgence of German power, especially because there was so much essential US investment in Germany. Germany align themselves with the Western powers in a fight against the Soviet threat.

The Soviets do not have the opportunity to occupy Germany so they do not take custody of the German leading rocket or atomic scientists. They are still reeling from Barbarossa and are only just starting to feel the benefits of their increased military industrial output.

The Western powers stilled have mobilised armed and trained forces right across Western Europe. Germany invites Allied scientists to work in their rocket establishments and the US provide huge resources into the V2 rocket development and production. German atomic scientists are shipped to the US to work on the A-bomb programme. Without a war to fight, the A-bomb is ready for deployment ahead of time. But the new allies now have ICBM capability as a launch vehicle.

In a political move to liberate Eastern Europe from the grip of the Soviets, the Allies (with Germany) move East into Poland, Lithuania, etc. They stop at the Russian border and issue surrender orders to Stalin. Regime change is their aim.

Stalin refuses. Strategic bombers and ICBMs are deployed to degrade his war-making capability taking out military production.

Japan is running out of oil and is not considered a long term threat so the first A-bomb is dropped on Russia, not Japan. In a copy-cat move to the assassination of Hitler, high-ranking Soviets kill Stalin.

The Stalin purges never takes place. Neither do the McCarthy purges. The World economy picks up much quicker because the Cold War never takes place.

But what of the sleeping giant that is China. Would they have expansionist policies? I suspect not.

What of Korea and Vietnam if there were no Soviets to back them? Perhaps they would have been skirmishes at most.

Would the Middle East still have happen? I guess so.

The space race never happens, neither do many of the modern military developments (i.e. stealth bombers, smart weapons, etc.) But there are much better advances in medicine and welfare.

The UN is much more useful because the veto is not used every 5 seconds and small dictatorships get a hard time.

Because the world economy booms so much earlier and to a much greater extent, industrialisation and globalisation is much bigger much quicker. We notice it much later because space systems haven't advanced so quickly.

So perhaps this would have been a Utopian outcome....but global warming would presumably happen much sooner and to a much greater extent. Peak oil would have been long ago. Food and water shortages would have become the new big deal because so many people in the world would have saved from the horrors of infant deaths and plagues.

Who'd be the biggest losers? I guess the poorest people in the poorest countries.

Whichever way you cut it, not much changes...

....and yes the British Empire would still have broken up.


>>>
Thank you for posing the question, I found that an interesting flight of fancy. Hopefully you may have found some food for thought amongst my ill-thought through ramblings

All the best

Steve

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jacobworld

I recon we would have serious problem . Although stalin was no better

deviger

I don't think Czarist Russia would have been able to withstand Hitler. They were too corrupt and disorganized at the time. While the human rights record of Soviet Russia was certainly deplorable , they were able to organize the industrial complex to fight of the Nazis.

faster

If I'm wrong, I'd like to hear how it is so, but I've always had the impression that it is very BAD FORM for an author to change history. The only exceptions are where the author makes it clear he's writing about an "alternative world" or where a character is able to move in time to actually alter known historical events, stuff like that. But what you can't do is write a novel that appears based on history, but where that history has been genuinely rewritten.

I wrote a novel that I can never publish. Among other reasons, it's because I did not know yet the makeup of one government - I'd thought it a monarchy, and it wasn't. In another govenment, I wrote about the overthrow of a known dictator who has not been overthrown. By that time, the story had a life of its own, and since I was writing it more for myself, I didn't care much. But it turned out to be such a good story that I later wished I could publish it. Not possible. Especially because I had also used real people as characters, based on my impressions about their personalities and characters. And THAT, I already know, is a nono. Without it, though, the story could not be re-engineered and remain nearly as good as it is.

So much for that.

In another novel, intended for publication, I'd erred about a particular mountain. The denouement is a violent confrontation in the crater at its summit. Then I learned the altitude is so high many people would need supplementary oxygen up there! Kinda takes away from the impact, don'tcha know? I also had to assume that the public could be kept from climbing to the summit - if they could, they'd have seen something that was intended to be secret. In real life, that would not be possible. I still don't know how to get around those little problems.

But it is news to me that a novel, apparently taking place in the real world and in real time, can blatantly change historical events, and be acceptable.

I'd like to read more about that, and perhaps read descriptions of novels where this has been done.

Holly B.

Non Serviam

Just the ones on the subject of Hitler:

• In the novel The Berkut, Hitler is revealed to have faked his own death after staging an elaborate deception making it appear as if he had Parkinson's disease and then having a double apparently commit suicide in his place. Hitler escapes from Berlin with the aid of an SS-colonel and is eventually tracked down by a Russian squad of secret agents. He is captured alive, taken to Moscow, and kept in a cage beneath the Kremlin for Stalin's amusement. Shortly after Stalin's death, Hitler is killed by the head of the squad which had captured him.
• In the British science fiction show The Tomorrow People, Hitler is revealed to have been a shapeshifting alien who was frozen by cryonics at the end of World War II. He emerges in the 1970s and attempts to take control of the world through mind control of young people. An earlier episode of The Tomorrow People gave reference that Hitler was a time traveler, although this contradicted the information in the later episode which revealed him to be an alien.
• The novel by Ira Levin, The Boys from Brazil, and the film of the same name, indicates that Hitler conspired with Josef Mengele to clone himself prior to his death. Using a liter of Hitler's blood, Mengele begins a project in the 1960s to clone several Hitlers and distribute the Hitler infants to families throughout the world. Mengele later attempts to recreate the sociological environment of Hitler's youth, beginning with killing the fathers of all the Hitler clones. Mengele's plan is to eventually create a second Hitler who will come of age in the 21st century and establish the Fourth Reich.
• A 1973 film, Hitler: The Last Ten Days starred Alec Guinness as Hitler and chronicles the final events in the bunker. In 2004 a German film Der Untergang (English title: Downfall) starring Bruno Ganz as Hitler covered the same events with much greater historical accuracy.
• The bizarre 1968 TV movie They Saved Hitler's Brain. Hitler's death is faked with a double, and his living head smuggled out of Berlin in a jar, where it plans a Nazi takeover from South America.
• In Marvel Comics, Hitler didn't commit suicide. Rather, he was confronted by the Human Torch and his sidekick Toro after Eva Braun had committed suicide. The two heroes set Hitler ablaze as he attempted to set off a bomb. As he died, he commanded one of his loyal followers nearby to tell the world he had committed suicide. He would later reappear as the Hate-Monger (see below).
• In the Simpsons episode Rosebud, there is a sequence in which it tells the events and life through the eyes of Montgomery Burns's teddy bear, Bobo. After being taken by Charles Lindbergh to Paris, France, Bobo falls off the plane, caught by Adolf Hitler in a crowd of hundreds welcoming Lindbergh. It moves forward to the year 1945, when Berlin is bombarded by the Soviet Red Army. In his bunker, he throws Bobo in anger, yelling, "This is all your fault!"
• In the book Fox on the Rhine, Hitler is killed by the 1944 bomb plot. Heinrich Himmler eventually becomes the new führer, and he quickly signs a treaty with the Russians. Erwin Rommel leads an attack on the Allies in the West, before finally surrendering. The book is followed by the sequel, Fox on the Front.

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Born naked, helpless, unable to care for himself and completely open-minded, Non Serviam has subsequently surmounted all these difficulties and gone on to become a decently-clothed, self-sufficient, close-minded sod.

The Backward OX

The conspiracy of silence surrounding the facts upon which this is all based is very, very, very frightening.

William Patrick Hitler is, as we speak, alive and kicking in beautiful downtown Bridgeport, CT. To some he is known as David.

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Mike C

That's easy. It's called making stuff up. You change the facts to suit the story. Move the mountain. Give it a different name. Job done.

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