History question...war - Writers Forum

GD · 08-23-2005, 09:57 AM

Over the year, mainly in war than anything else there has been glorious cockups.

Charge of the Light Brigade and the like.

I was just wondering if people can name a few for me. Links if possible.

I can't help but write scifi, but I want to include stupid cockups which make the whole thing feel more real.

For example I have under my belt the whole cockup with the ships involved in the Fawlklands, which were lost more to thier poor design than enemy fire.

mammamaia · 08-23-2005, 10:18 AM

don't forget 'little big horn' and 'the alamo'...

vietnam and iraq certainly qualify for the 'major cockup' award too, doncha think?

journyman161 · 08-23-2005, 10:26 AM

Gallipoli & the Dardanelles in the 1st world war; the Royal Navy landed ANZAC troops several miles from the deserted sloping beach they were meant ot land at, instead choosing a nice steep cliff with a battalion of Turks at the top, fully armed with machine guns etc.

We lost thousands!

(ANZAC - Australian & New Zealand Army Corps

mammamaia · 08-23-2005, 10:28 AM

too true!... i forgot about that one... what did you think of mel gibson's major debut film, ozman?... realistic enough forya?

Kane · 08-23-2005, 12:59 PM

The battle of Thermopylae, where 7,000 Greeks held off 250,000 Persians for three days, ending with 300 Spartans charging into battle, allowing the rest of the Greeks to retreat to Athens to rally. The Spartans fought with spears until they broke. Then they drew their swords and slew more. When their swords were broken, they fought with their bare hands and their teeth. They died heroically, defending freedom, and even the free world we live in today owes that freedom to them. They entered into combat against insurmountable odds, true warriors to the very end.

mammamaia · 08-23-2005, 01:13 PM

and the jews thinking they were safe from the romans on their plateau refuge at masada...

freebird · 08-23-2005, 02:16 PM

Battle of Agincourt...1415...Figures vary greatly for the English losses. Shakespeare gives the English dead as four nobles and 25 regular troops. Some estimates go as high as 500 or even 1,000 but the most widely accepted figure is 100-200 English dead. French losses are better known; the French themselves estimated these at between 8,000 and 11,000 of whom 1,200-1,800 were slaughtered prisoners.

Shakespere gave us:

WESTMORELAND. O that we now had here
But one ten thousand of those men in England
That do no work to-day!

KING. What's he that wishes so?
My cousin Westmoreland? No, my fair cousin;
If we are mark'd to die, we are enow
To do our country loss; and if to live,
The fewer men, the greater share of honour.
God's will! I pray thee, wish not one man more.
By Jove, I am not covetous for gold,
Nor care I who doth feed upon my cost;
It yearns me not if men my garments wear;
Such outward things dwell not in my desires.
But if it be a sin to covet honour,
I am the most offending soul alive.
No, faith, my coz, wish not a man from England.
God's peace! I would not lose so great an honour
As one man more methinks would share from me
For the best hope I have. O, do not wish one more!
Rather proclaim it, Westmoreland, through my host,
That he which hath no stomach to this fight,
Let him depart; his passport shall be made,
And crowns for convoy put into his purse;
We would not die in that man's company
That fears his fellowship to die with us.
This day is call'd the feast of Crispian.
He that outlives this day, and comes safe home,
Will stand a tip-toe when this day is nam'd,
And rouse him at the name of Crispian.
He that shall live this day, and see old age,
Will yearly on the vigil feast his neighbours,
And say 'To-morrow is Saint Crispian.'
Then will he strip his sleeve and show his scars,
And say 'These wounds I had on Crispian's day.'
Old men forget; yet all shall be forgot,
But he'll remember, with advantages,
What feats he did that day. Then shall our names,
Familiar in his mouth as household words-
Harry the King, Bedford and Exeter,
Warwick and Talbot, Salisbury and Gloucester-
Be in their flowing cups freshly rememb'red.
This story shall the good man teach his son;
And Crispin Crispian shall ne'er go by,
From this day to the ending of the world,
But we in it shall be remembered-
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother; be he ne'er so vile,
This day shall gentle his condition;
And gentlemen in England now-a-bed
Shall think themselves accurs'd they were not here,
And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
That fought with us upon Saint Crispin's day.

http://www.familychronicle.com/agincort.htm

journyman161 · 08-24-2005, 09:22 AM

Would Pearl Harbour count? Japan attacked an isolationist US, waking them up & getting them involved in the Pacific war.
Has to be the single biggest mistake they made.

They could have marched around the pacific, conquering at will, but instead they (in the words of either Hirohito or Yamamoto) 'woke the sleeping Tiger,' & so lost their war.

Or how about Carthage? Hannibal sent them several thousand centurion rings to show how he had the romans on the ropes, & the Carthage bureaucrats bickered & debated & then refused to send him the aid he asked for & withing a few years, Carthage was no more.

Londongrey · 08-24-2005, 10:18 AM

Battle of the Bulge from an American perspective.

Less of a cock-up more of an underestimation.

It happened in Belgium during WWII, we had just got France back and did not know that Hitler hd planned an attack of more than 200,000 German troops.

JustJim · 08-25-2005, 12:20 AM

You could take the Athenians at Syrcuse, counted as one of the worst defeats in history. Peloponnesian War c 400 bce. Read all about it in the book of the same name by Thucycides. Then there was the charge of the 2nd Lancers at Onderman in which Winston Spencer Churchill took part. His description of the trap (although he doesn't call it that) set by the dervishes is somewhat chilling. It comes near the end of his marvelous book, The River War which is available for free download at Project Gutenberg. You'll probably find Peloponnesian War there too.

From the German side, there is Field Marshal von Kluck (I think that's his name.) He swayed from the Schliffen plan in the First World War. Instead of following the plan and heading south to encircle Paris, thinking he had the war won, he turned the German army south east. Unknown to him, the last remenants of the French army along with the tattered remains of the British Expeditionary Force were gathered south to make a last stand. When the Germans didn't attack, but headed straight for Paris, they counter attacked inflicting the first defeat on the Germans since the war started. The Germans fell back and thus started the four year stalemate that ended in the German defeat.

WW2 from the German side. Dunkirk. This is called a British defeat, and it was, but it was also a German cockup. Field Marshal Goering told Hitler that he could destroy the armies trapped on the beach at Dunkirk. Hitler ordered his army to hold off from attacking. Goering did not deliver and the British army and the remenants of the French army escaped to Britain. This in the end led to German defeat. Had they destroyed those troops and carried on across the channel. Well. Just think what sort of salute would be in use now.

The Battle of Britain. The failure of the German airforce to gain aerial superiority over Britain led to thier inability to invade the British Isles. But they did come close.

The Battle of Stalingrad, which I feel was the turning point in the war. von Paulus' army took Stalingrad, but the Soviets had a million fresh troops waiting behind the city. These attacked circling Stalingrad and cutting off von Paulus and his army. Hitler wanted Paulus to withdraw, but Goering assured his Fuhrer that he could supply Paulus' army from the air. But the Soviet advance was to swift and penetrated too far. Goering's planes could not reach Stalingrad. Paulus and his army were starving when the surrendered. There's a picture somewhere of Paulus surrendering. He's almost as skinny as can be.

Syracuse and Stalingrad are ranked in the fifteen worst defeats in history.

Of lesser degree, but equally bad in many ways were the commando raid on Dieppe, and the failure at Arhnem. In the latter offensive which was to take the Allied forces across the River Rhine, intelligence failed to let the Allies know that a German Panzer division was resting in the area. The attackers didn't have a chance.

JustJim · 08-25-2005, 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Londongrey

Battle of the Bulge from an American perspective.

Less of a cock-up more of an underestimation.

It happened in Belgium during WWII, we had just got France back and did not know that Hitler hd planned an attack of more than 200,000 German troops.

I once met a rather timid ex-German combat photographer. He volunteered as a parachutist in that area to get away from the Russian Front. Anything to get away.

Anarkos · 08-26-2005, 07:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mammamaia

don't forget 'little big horn' and 'the alamo'...

vietnam and iraq certainly qualify for the 'major cockup' award too, doncha think?

One of my political studies lecturers was arrested for pissing on the Alamo.

Drzava · 08-29-2005, 03:22 PM

I dunno...how is Vietnam a cockup? I think it was probably just what the US wanted it to be.

LensmanZ313 · 08-29-2005, 04:38 PM

The Spanish-American War. Not America's finest hour . . . .

Drzava · 08-29-2005, 10:56 PM

Well, what was America's goal in Vietnam?

After so much death and destruction in the war, what country would even THINK about turning communist after Vietnam? America didn't lose a battle in the war either, and although it didn't exactly look pretty I think they emerged the victor.