Thread: Organized crime/undercover police

So in the comic I'm writing, a group of Yardies are running a club as a front to a drug running business. They established their teritory after moving in on the neighbourhood formally controlled by another Yardie group whose operations were ceased when their founding members were jailed. But on finishing their setence, they come back to find their old customers being stolen by the club. So they start threatening the club group with violence.

The main character of the book currently does not know that the club is a front, and niavely thinks that they are simply a legitimate business who are being harrassed. Being a super hero, she's hanging out at the club a lot to help fend off these attackers.

I had the idea to take the story in this direction for a while. But now that I'm actually writing it, it dawns upon me that the club owners might think that a random person they don't know coming and helping them seems a little suspicious, considering that they themselves are criminals.

So my question is, what kind of things are they likely to be weary of? My first thought was that they might suspect my main character is a undercover cop. So is there anything in particular criminals tend to look out for in that department? I try to have my criminals make mistakes every now and then to make them seem more believable, but these guys are career drug dealers, they have more experience than the average mugger. At the same time though, they're not quite as organized or dangerous as the Mafia. Think Crips or Bloods level organized crime.

The story is set in England. But I don't know how much of a difference that will make.

I read this three times before I realized that you meant "wary"--"wary of" instead of "weary of". (At least I think that's what you meant.)

I don't know how smart your criminals are. Smart criminals pretty much don't trust anybody. If someone seems like a naive "do-gooder" type of person they might employ that person as a sort of "useful idiot", i.e., someone who can be an unwitting lookout or mule from time to time, or someone whose presence (like a law enforcement person in uniform) makes them appear legitimate.

Among street gangs the competition is pretty fierce. If these guys are up-and-coming then they have to have at least one or two smart strategists in the bunch or they will all end up dead or in jail, so at least one guy in the gang has got to get sort of wise to who your super hero/ine really is. (Just a thought I had.)

Otherwise if the person is not in the family or known very well to at least a few of the gang members, it's doubtful they would let him or her hang around a whole lot. Their tolerance would have to be based on previous acquaintance or some sort of use that he/she would be to the gang.

Does that make sense? If not--blame it on the "steamroller" I smoked an hour or so ago, I suppose! lol

Okay, that's quite helpful, I was kind of thinking along the lines of having them keep her around as free help, like you said, but I was thinking of just having them watch her closely. Are there any particular tell-tale signs that's she's untrustworthy, that they'd be looking out for?

Not trusting anyone is pretty much a standard of all criminal types, regardless of culture. They don't start out trusting one and then only over time lose that trust; they start out assuming that once you know what they are into, you will either A) want a piece of the action for yourself (competition), B) rat on them (a security threat), or C) unwittingly give them away in some regard, just by being around and not knowing what the deal is, i.e., if during some transaction someone dropped a balloon full of drug on the floor and your heroine picked it up, and assuming it's a kid's toy, gave it to a kid. Stuff like that.

Criminals are not like regular people; they're not always looking to make new friends. Even if they are drug dealers, the friendliness is always just on the surface. They never really trust anyone, a lot of the time not even their own families.

That being said: What you probably need to establish is that someone in the gang can see a use for her--for example, is she better-than-average looking...? If so, then they might want to keep her around just to make them look like Big Men, if she acts stupid enough. (No female is simply allowed to hang around with a gang if she is clever unless she's actually IN the gang; gangsters will NEVER tolerate a smart female no matter how good-looking she is.) (See items A and B, above.)

What you probably need to establish is that someone in the gang can see a use for her

Yeah, I'm pretty much going with that angle. She has super-powers, but they don't actually know this, to them she just appears to be very good at fighting. The first time she meets one of them, she saves them being from killed by a rival dealer, and on their second encounter with her she deals with an out of control club-goer who their bouncers fail to subdue. So while they don't actually know the cause of her skills, it's pretty obvious to them that she is decent muscle.

I didn't know what a "Yardie" was so I had to consult my good friend wikipedia.

Interesting. Apparently that term is used in some parts of the U.S. too. I'm not familiar with it though.

I think you need to get into the head of someone that is both ethnically Jamaican and a Yardie. I can't help you with that, I'm ethnically Black-American. I don't know anything about Jamaicans. I've also never been involved in high level drug dealing or crime.

I have dealt cocaine on a small time street level when I first got out the Marine Corps. If ethnic Jamaican crime is like anything I'm familiar with then in general those cats prefer to deal with people within their circle, that they can trace through others vouching for them. If the person can be vouched for (e.g., "Yeah... I know Miss X, I grew up with her on Y street, that '$%&%$' is raw business, she'll pimp, hoe, and hustle to make her 'bread'") then they're in. That said, the intelligence of criminals, especially in the drug trade, is overrated. How smart do you have to be to sell drugs and use guns and violence? Not too smart. We're not dealing with Rhode scholars here. The next brain surgeon ain't coming out the cocaine trade.

And from my perception the illegal drug trade is like regular life in the sense that rising through the ranks depends a lot on who you know. It never ceases to amaze me the number of lazy, average IQ, and pussy cats that become well-to-do mid-level drug dealers just because they're friends with the right person.

Many street persons aren't all that different from non-street people. They live by the codes of the street though and violence and "hustling" are normal to them. Most men "in the life" from my experience at least, don't like nor trust women in their "business." For some reason I suspect this to be especially true among Jamaicans and certain ethnicities. If the woman can be vouched for to be a hustler and stand up, then cats will bring her in. If she's a square chick it's unlikely. And I'll tell you why. As a rule of thumb women will turn your butt over to the police. I have a good friend doing time in federal prison for bank robbery and his whole clique's thing spiraled down hill from the single phone call of one of the guy's girlfriend. She was enraged at him for cheating on her. So, she picked up the phone one day and called the police and told them she knew who robbed such and such bank.

So, your character might be suspected of being a snitch or cop if she asks too personal of questions. Asking a cat if he is married or has kids is not too personal. Especially for a woman and especially if she's showing interest. Asking the cat his address is.

How smart do you have to be to sell drugs and use guns and violence? Not too smart. We're not dealing with Rhode scholars here. The next brain surgeon ain't coming out the cocaine trade

.Add lazy to that, whilst "easy money is oft times hard" (Jona Lewis) it is still seen as easy money, and that is the attraction.

Hope I'm not too late to the party.

Like most of the commenters in here, my advise is to have the criminals keep their real business under wraps. They would only see a potential for disaster should the super hero find out.

Most people in organised crime have strict rules about what they do and how they behave. Gangs are different; these are very quite loose and based on being strong and in some ways feared. Gaining entrance into a gang can be done by knowing someone, and having them vouch for you. There's an initiation and displays of your dedication to the group. With organised crime, it's more difficult. You don't get to see anyone of any true importance in the group until you've proven yourself; no one can vouch for you, you need to display your worth before you'll be tested/accepted. In some cases, you need to be of a specific group (whether race, belief, class, bloodline, qualification, etc) before you'll even be considered. It really depends on the group...

Of course, there are differences between each group that may not fit into the above generalisation.

Both groups don't trust outsiders, but to different extents. They know that outsiders present a threat to their chosen way of life. A chance taken on an outsider is a chance to get caught. They really don't know if someone will say nice things in their company, then report it to the police.. or if they're just not smart enough to know what not to say and do. Generally, they wont mention anything about their 'secret life' unless they have something to gain that's worth the risk you present.

I've had some contact with various people within various groups. But never seen the inside of their operations.. nor would I want to. But in every case, I'm stunned by how normal some of these people seem. They're family men, they have loving wives, they don't swear around their kids, they (for the most part) respect others, they speak and dress well, and know the value of friends... I couldn't suggest any mannerism that would separate them from the average person, aside from their chosen occupation.

I think this thing alone has struck me as the most odd when meeting these people. They just seem so normal.

If you wanted to write about organised crime, the only difference I'd make pronounced in them is their confidence. Their self assurance that the world generally works out for them.. and if it doesn't, that they've got what it takes to persevere.

The only thing they'd really be wary of is telling anyone about what they do. The profession doesn't define them, it's just another part of their lives. They'd interact with most people in a normal way, and a completely different way with those they're 'dealing' with.

Originally Posted by Olly Buckle

.Add lazy to that, whilst "easy money is oft times hard" (Jona Lewis) it is still seen as easy money, and that is the attraction.

True. Some of the laziest people I have ever met have been drug dealers. You can't get up and walk 4 blocks to deliver $40 worth of crack because you're 24 years old and too busy smoking marijuana and playing video games with your friends. That pisses me off.

I don't know how it is in England but in the U.S. I'd say the media is partly to blame. The media loves presenting this image of 16 year old kids making $100,000 a year from selling crack. Laughable. And not that it doesn't happen it's just that it's rare. It was probably more common in the mid 1980's when fewer individuals where involved in street level dealing but now the market is saturated.

The average small level street dealer in the U.S. earns a profit of a about $300 a week. And contrary to media images its worse than working an $8 hour job on an assembly line. The paranoia is great. Every time the police drive by you are wondering, "What do I have on me?" and then there's the danger from other drug dealers or from some cats sticking you up, and add on to that being called all hours of the night. It's not worth it because you have more peace of mind on an assembly line.

But drug dealing gives you higher social status - especially among young women - in the hood than working a dead end job. That's a great attraction and understandably so.

I never really saw much true respect given to dealers.. granted, there was the inferred respect from those that were users; based on the need for supplies. But that's not really respect, it's mostly a desire to keep in good standing with their supplier. Much like how you speak well to your dentist.. because he has some control over what you experience.

I guess there's also the image of a 'man with contacts', but I'm not sure how far that takes you. It's a secondary effect.. the respect is for the contact him/herself, rather than the person who knows him/her. When someone says to you, "wow, you know Johhny", they're not thinking about you. They're thinking about this person (Johhny) they've built up in their imagination.. and that 'thing' they're thinking of isn't the real person. Sure, they're impressed, but it's mostly an illusion they're impressed by.

My comments here are really steering towards the higher up people having true respect rather than the 'street level' guys. You could argue there's some at all levels, but the difference between 'layers' makes the respect given to the lower guys marginal.

Originally Posted by Writ-with-Hand

But drug dealing gives you higher social status - especially among young women - in the hood than working a dead end job. That's a great attraction and understandably so.

Originally Posted by KrisMunro

I never really saw much true respect given to dealers.. granted, there was the inferred respect from those that were users; based on the need for supplies. But that's not really respect, it's mostly a desire to keep in good standing with their supplier. Much like how you speak well to your dentist.. because he has some control over what you experience.

I guess there's also the image of a 'man with contacts', but I'm not sure how far that takes you. It's a secondary effect.. the respect is for the contact him/herself, rather than the person who knows him/her. When someone says to you, "wow, you know Johhny", they're not thinking about you. They're thinking about this person (Johhny) they've built up in their imagination.. and that 'thing' they're thinking of isn't the real person. Sure, they're impressed, but it's mostly an illusion they're impressed by.

My comments here are really steering towards the higher up people having true respect rather than the 'street level' guys. You could argue there's some at all levels, but the difference between 'layers' makes the respect given to the lower guys marginal.

Kris, my comment above was not meant to be understood as a challenge to anything you said. And I'm just reflecting on my own culture. I think you're from and living in Australia?

I would say in contemporary Black-American culture among those of the Hip Hop generations, even low level drug dealers have rather high social status, at least among women. For me to gain the equivalent social status a low level drug dealer I would have to become a medical doctor or a financially well-to-do Protestant preacher with the gold watch, cuff links, and diamond ring.

As for the Jamaicans, I have a couple childhood friends that once worked for some based out of Chicago, in illegal activity. But I personally know little about Jamaicans. Not a people I socialize with.

Originally Posted by Writ-with-Hand

Kris, my comment above was not meant to be understood as a challenge to anything you said. And I'm just reflecting on my own culture. I think you're from and living in Australia?

I would say in contemporary Black-American culture among those of the Hip Hop generations, even low level drug dealers have rather high social status, at least among women. For me to gain the equivalent social status a low level drug dealer I would have to become a medical doctor or a financially well-to-do Protestant preacher with the gold watch, cuff links, and diamond ring.

As for the Jamaicans, I have a couple childhood friends that once worked for some based out of Chicago, in illegal activity. But I personally know little about Jamaicans. Not a people I socialize with.

Nothing to worry about. I didn't think you were challenging anything I said, just explaining how things were over there. And you're right, the differences we're seeing are most likely due to culture (along with our own limited experiences).

Dealers don't get near the respect that doctors do, over here. The dealer wouldn't make his activities generally known, mostly because there are people out there that look upon it so negatively, that they would either call the police or take matters into their own hands. So these people are pretty choosy about who they spend their time with. Mind, the drug culture over in the states is likely more 'evolved' than it is here. Here, there aren't many places you need to be afraid of.. and you can get away with passing through them for the most part.

Sure, people have their groups of friends, and it may become known among them that someone can get you what you need, but it's nothing that allows the dealer to act in a way that negatively affects others. As a crude example; I couldn't imagine someone flirting with my girl, and having people around me tell me that it's allowed because he's a dealer...