Thread: Working fantasy-creatures: centaurs?

Hallo everybody! I'm new here, so I hope you'll all be nice to me.

So, to the subject. I'm working on a project of making a typical, classic fantasy-world into something realistic and working. This means taking typical fantasy-creatures and making them more realistic, such as unicorns and satyrs. The thing is I'm trying to work out a working centaur at the moment, the most unrealistic fantasy-creature ever created, and I would love some help! (You might need patience for this thread though, it's lots of text. D: )


Points I need help with:

- Having a human-overbody ON a horse-body is the most impractical thing in the world. Not only would they probably fall over forward, but also it would be a big burden while running but also while standing still, because it would provide a huge weight. Might moving the humanbody further back on the horsebody might be a good start? Or simply bend it backwards?

-Centaurs are half horses and have hooves and are fast runners, which means they are suited for open land and not forests. This makes feeding a problem though:
Horses eat mostly grass and plants, which can be found in an open land, but a centaur can't bow down and reach the plants (they will FALL, if nothing else). I had an idea that they might pick things from busches and trees, considering that they're pretty tall, but that means they have to live pretty close to a forest after all. Predators can easily hide in forests. Might this be a good reason for the centaurs to have weapons? They don't need them for hunting if they eat plats, after all.

- I'm having problems deciding about the body-hair a centaur should have. A horse's body is covered in short hair, but a human's body is much balder. Long hair on the head and pretty much body-hair, like a hairy man, might be an option. But I don't want them to look like a pile of hair either. What do you say?

- Practically it's two bodies with multiple vital organs, so where would the organs be placed?


I think that was all for now. Would love some help! C:

Hallo to you, excuse...

Why not use human parts on the horse-like body? Like human ears on the horse head....or a human thumb on the side of a hoof.

You could make the Centaurs look more like a giraffe...that way they could eat from the trees.

Hallo to you! C:

I suppose you mean horse-ears on the human-head? :s Why on earth didn't that hit me before? XD With horse-parts they would be more suited for the environment! Adding human-parts to the horse-body does not bring any advantages though, I think. Have to look into that though!

The idea with the giraffe hit me before, I'm surprised I didn't pick it up earlier. I think that's a good idea! If I tilt the horse-body like a giraffe's body it would not be as overweighted in the front either. And they could easily reach trees to eat.

Thank you! C: *gives cookie*

Originally Posted by excuseme

Hallo everybody! I'm new here, so I hope you'll all be nice to me.

- Having a human-overbody ON a horse-body is the most impractical thing in the world. Not only would they probably fall over forward, but also it would be a big burden while running but also while standing still, because it would provide a huge weight. Might moving the humanbody further back on the horsebody might be a good start? Or simply bend it backwards?

Believe it or not, i've researched the very same thing for my own book! (And trust me, i know how hard it is to actually find any information on how much a horses head weighs, let alone with the neck)

Anyway, here's all the mathematical facts that I've found:
Well, actually, weather or not they are to top heavy or front heavy to run is pretty much up to the human-torso to horse-body ratio. If you describe the horse body as being to small (Like in the harry potter 1 movie), then i would say they could stand, but not run, but if you describe them as being of normal human size and a normal horse's average size, then they would be fine. you have to remember that a normal horse weighs around 800-1500 US pounds depending on bread. a full grown Quarter horse usually weighs around 1300 pounds on average, but can weigh anywhere from 1000-1400 (though i have heard of heavier ones). Now, taking that into consideration while also taking into consideration that 10% (Actually, it's more like 12.8%, but for the sake of easy math, let's round that down to 10%) of that weight is the head (and neck), that means that the weight range of the head (and neck) is 100-140 pounds.

Now, what about the torso of a man? (we won't even talk about women as the average woman is around 135 pounds with legs and all, so she's pretty much covered). Well, the human body's weight is usually 10% in the head and neck (it's like that for most mammals, actually, with the difference being only 1-3%. The human head weighs 8% and the neck 2%usually weighs 8-9.5 pounds while the neck is usually around 3-5), arms (together) 20% (10% each), Torso 35% (sort of, i'll explain this after the legs), Legs 35% together (17.5% each).

Actually, for the legs and torso, the percentage changes based on height and body build with the torso's going between 33-40% and the legs going from 30-37%. (apparently, pear shaped tall women tend to have more weight in their legs as a whole then they do in their torso) so i just kind of met in the middle to make it easier for math since 35%/35% is a possibility and seems to be the average, though most doctors will say it is 30%/40%)

Anyway, with that in mind, a taller man of average build usually weighs between 180 and 220 US pounds.

So, let's pick nice number somewhere in that range.... hm... i'll go with the maximum (just to make this fun). So, that means we have a man of 220lb, now, let's cut his legs off (Chop), that means we just subtracted 35% of his weight, or 77lb leaving us with a total of 143lb left over.

So, if a horses head and neck weighs around 140 pounds, and a man's body without it's legs weigh around 143, are the two number's close enough to allow for the horse to run or stand upright without falling over if we go by weight? well, considering the fact that people usually put their horses in 10.5 pound head gear when they put them on display (the really fancy kind people make them wear for weddings and shows), i'm sure it would be just fine.

Now, as for size, all i can say is, have you ever seen a giraffe run? They aren't elegant, and tend to be slow, but it is possible for them to do it and it is about the right size in proportion to what we're thinking of. Plus, some breads of horses hove necks that are about the same height as a human neck/head/torso. (Again, please note that I am talking about the larger breeds, and I said some, not all or most)

So, in conclusion, there you have it for the human-body/horse-body running and standing issue. though visually it might not look like they should stand, but actually, it just perfect in proportions (you wouldn't believe how many times i redid the math for that after seeing the results the first time. visually, it looks ridiculous in proportion, but apparently, mathematically, it isn't, but then again, a giraffe looks like a small breeze should tip it over, so that goes to show how you can never really tell)

Originally Posted by excuseme

-Centaurs are half horses and have hooves and are fast runners, which means they are suited for open land and not forests. This makes feeding a problem though:
Horses eat mostly grass and plants, which can be found in an open land, but a centaur can't bow down and reach the plants (they will FALL, if nothing else). I had an idea that they might pick things from busches and trees, considering that they're pretty tall, but that means they have to live pretty close to a forest after all. Predators can easily hide in forests. Might this be a good reason for the centaurs to have weapons? They don't need them for hunting if they eat plats, after all.

Well, once again, there is a few assumptions in there that aren't quite correct.

It's true that horses have hooves and are fast runners, but hoofed animals aren't always found in open land. A deer is also a hoofed animal, and tends to be fast, but are found in open land and in forests. As for horses themselves, yes, they prefer wide open places, but many of the places that wild horses live in are large open areas that are surrounded by trees which they have no problem going into to get to food that they like (though usually the food they like is out in the open anyway, so they don't need to.

Also, you forget, horses do eat apples as well and apple trees can grow in wide open areas with only one or two trees in a single spot, making it still an open area. (true, a horse will usually eat them off of the ground, but they can yank them off the trees using their teeth).

Now for why saying s/he wouldn't be able to pick them up is wrong is because, while it is true that horses do actually tend to sleep standing up, it is a myth that they can not lie down. The only reason why a horse usually sleeps standing up is because they take a minute to stand, and as they are prey animals for carnivores, sleeping while laying down would be suicide, but they still take naps while laying down from time to time (except for pregnant females as it kills the off spring).

So, the answer to your problem with their food is: they can already get food off of the ground, and foods that grow on trees tend to be around them anyway that they can just pluck when they are hungry. Now, if you want them to have more variety or you think that it would be to much of a hassle for them to lay down to get food every time they are hungry, remember, you can just put foods that grow on vines or in trees where ever the live, and a lot of foods that horses eat tend to be very bushy (apart from your average grass/bluegrass), such as wild oats and wheat.

Which brings us to your weapon's question:
Well, i would actually have them have weapons even if you don't have them live near a forest, while i did say that wild horses have been known to go into the forest, they still usually stay in the plains and other open areas, but they still get eaten by species of big cats (such as Pumas, Cougars, and wolves there to. (which are the same things that would hunt them in for forest)

Originally Posted by excuseme

- I'm having problems deciding about the body-hair a centaur should have. A horse's body is covered in short hair, but a human's body is much balder. Long hair on the head and pretty much body-hair, like a hairy man, might be an option. But I don't want them to look like a pile of hair either. What do you say?

Well, just have the hair get steadily shorter from around where the horses body and the man's body connects to the mans navel (if that's where you are going to have the navel). (or make the hare stop in a V shape as though the grew around the abdominal muscles, which is what i did.

Originally Posted by excuseme

- Practically it's two bodies with multiple vital organs,

so where would the organs be placed?

Well, some animals (mostly just worms) have multiples of organs, and some (such as a starfish) don't have most organs (starfish do not have a heart, a brain or eyes, but actually several copies of other organs in their arms, which is why the arm can regenerate if you cut it of. yep, if you cut a starfish's arm off, that arm can usually heal and become another starfish, though not always)

But, i do get what you mean, and once again, i wandered the same thing and came up with an actual solution (several, actually).
. The first solution is to have the organs in the horse's body and simply have the human torso just be a muscular construct.
. Have the heart and lungs in the human torso and every other organ in the horses, allowing for the centaur to have bigger lungs and a larger heart (as well as a larger every other organ as well) (this was my favorite idea)
. to just have to of everything (kind of like worm) I didn't like this idea because it would pretty much be impossible for the horses lungs to actually get concentrated air, but i'm still listing it for you just in case.

Originally Posted by excuseme

I think that was all for now. Would love some help! C:

Welcome!

I just wanted to say that I love you now, Dreamer135! Thousand thanks for sharing that information, it's more help than anyone could imagine! C:

Especially because I'm hopelessly bad at researching, since I have problems focusing. This gives me big problems when I'm searching for the right information, because I have problems enough to focus on text that's about what I need to know. When I have ten times as much text my head goes all dizzy. So having people helping me helps a lot!


When it comes to hoofs, I thought that since deers have this kind of hoofes

and horses have this kind:

I thought deers were more suited for forests. But I might be wrong? Just being curious now! (I was thinking of basing my unicorns on deers, you see)


I agree with you about the organs, that having only heart and lungs in the human torso and the rest in the horse body was a neat idea! They might need pretty big lungs and heart to get the air and blood through the whole body, after all.

Thank you once again! C:

trust me, i know what you mean by research, if it wasn't for the fact that i've been procrastinating about my book for forever and a day, i probably wouldn't have been able to actually do the research.

as for the hooves, actually, you're right. Cloven hoofed animals can live pretty well in just about any environment (mountains, rocky hill sides, open valleys, forest, you name it, they can live there), and horses do prefer to be in wide open areas (which might be because of the hooves, but i don't really know why, so i'm not goign in to that), but as i said before, they have been known to go into the forest. as for their hooves, as far as i can find, while they can handle most places, don't do well on rocks (actually, that depends on the horse's hoof type, but i didn't bother to do much research into that one as horse hooves all look the same to me -.-', sorry, but as far as i can tell, the only difference in the types is that some are tall and slender and some are short and very broad at the base), but forest floors are primarily branches, twigs, dirt, leaves, and grass, not fist sized rocks like you'll find on really rocky mountain sides (which goats, sheep, and deer have no problem with), at least that was the only down side to horse hooves that i could find on the internet, but that one was even harder to find that how much a horses head weighs, so i'm not really sure if i trust it (only two sites gave me any bit of information on things that can be dangerous to horses because of their hooves).

But, i do know for a fact that horses are known to head into forests and have been seen in them, so knowing that, and hearing the explanation about rocky environments, i just went with it.

Yes, plus, creatures with bigger hearts and bigger lungs in proportion to their body tend to be faster (and tend to be able to run for longer) so it would also help with the whole 'speed' thing in the myths (they're supposed to be ridiculously fast, so it just works out for that this way )

Hmmm. Thinking about the human-horse addition for a centaur is a rather difficult proposition. But here are some ideas.

Body hair: The whole body can have the velvet that a horse has, while they can have a human head of hair with a mane going down the neck and upper spine to join at the body junction.

Body Design: A centaur would probably need two hearts, and maybe four lungs, or specially designed lungs to handle the construction of the body.
Also they wont necessarily have a horse sized torso. And nor will the human torso be human sized. I see their human torso more compact and dense in line with a horses build. The head would probably be slightly stretched in comparison to a mans and I don't think they would eat meat. But that is your choice. But I see a Centaur as having slightly more robust legs than the basic horse design. And remember, you can make them fit any environment. Who is to say there isn't a kind of centaur that is a billy goat? My recommendation is ask 'where' they live and how horses (or whatever other animals you choose) adapt themselves to those areas.
As for posture, it depends on the length of the upper torso. A squat torso would be more straight and if they had strong enough back muscles they could lean forward. A longer would probably have an S curve as they walked. A sort of slouch.
I myself am creating my own races, and constantly think this, and I suggest you turn it into your own mantra, you would be surprised just how well it works at eliminating traits that 'look good' but would their hinder or be useless for an animal or sentient and sapient race. 'What would the be like if real? How can I make them real?" remember that while they will have some biological strengths there will be downsides. One of my races (for example) have males who are at average 12-13 feet tall, and whose arms are meant to be like a steam shovels for digging. But that also means they have little manual dexterity, so for them trying to pick up a shot glass by pinching it in two fingers is impossible, They either can't hold it, or they crush it. So then the next question is "How would they adapt to their limitations?". In my races case and the shot glass, they would dip a claw into the bowl and then flip it upside down to rest on the claw.

Centaurs are a complicated creature, that’s for sure. I just adore mythical creatures, but I haven’t done as much homework as you guys. I thought I would share what I have anyway, and you can discard it if need be.

Ever heard of a creature called Silenus? At first it was Sileni in the plural sense, but then it was decided Silenus was just one creature; who happened to followed around and tutor the god Dionysus. Silenus was drunk most of the time, some depictions have him balding and overweight. It all really depends on what your preference is to the variations of said creature, as I choose to say there are multiple Sileni instead of just one.

Anyway, Silenus usually have horse legs, ears, and tails. This is somewhat of a Centaur based character, but it chucks a whole lot of your questions out the window. With the slimmer, longer body he won’t have to worry about bending over; he can now traverse over more land than before because he doesn’t have so much disembodied weight, and there is no reason for multiple vital organs.

As you can see, the Silenus creature is very diverse and easy to use. He has the same basic outline of a Centaur, just think of him as the travel size. I love the idea of this creature, I have yet to see it used, and if it has someone please inform me now!

Thought I would throw this out to you, Excuseme!

Throwing my two cents in, just in case you're still listening.

I'm more science-fiction than fantasy, so hold on for a moment.

Started a D&D game for hubby and in it are some *ta-da* centaurs. I like to "keep it real", so I've been doing my own bunch of thought on the subject. What I came to was more that food, water, breathing, etc matter more than weight, because, as already pointed out, a horse head weighs about as much as human torso. However, a horse's head is configured for its body mas--obtaining proper suste\nence, air, etc ans is thus much better equipt at meeting the needs of its much larger body.

Human nostrils are not big enough. Our airways are too small. So, I made the nostrils flare out a bit, especially if the creature's moving much.

Human mouth is designed for human intake. Horses don't sleep more than a couple hours a night because their caloric intake must be so huge and found in such low calorie foods. If the centaur is customized for a higher calorie diet (and would have to be for the food to be ingested by a creature with a meaningful social life), its intestines are probably a bit more streamlined, its gas isn't as profuse, it eats more meats and lots of fat (possibly quite a bit of alcohol too as that gets metabolised as calories . Thus, we have your typical carousing diet of fun stuff instead of weeds.

Horses won't fall over for bending over. That was kind of silly because half a human isn't going to weigh as much as the body of a horse. Plus, even a fat human on a horse's body won't really be a fat human because weight is gained in the belly where food is metabolised. Food would not be metabolised in the human part, which would mostly exist for the arms and head and so be quite lean, muscular and lovely even if the belly is gaining weight. A horse's heart and lungs are plenty to support a human torso, so no worries there either.

Matters more practical, centaurs would be social groomers because they can't reach their own butts and feet. They would probably sleep socially or near other large objects they could rest their human halves on/against. Mine seem to prefer close friends and relatives because A) they're comfortable, and B) the startle reflex of one will wake up anyone touching that person. Horses get ticks, mats in their fur, mud in unmentionable places and need help grooming. Centaurs would too. They may also require shoeing.

In regards to hair, my centaurs were purposefully engineered so that most of the horse genome could be preserved, but what's human is human. Mine are generally fair-skinned (like most horses are under their fur) and sometimes take a great while in getting facial and upper body hair, though they frequently have extensive "happy trails" early. Human hair color matches horse hair color. Teeth are large and prominent.

Laughs can sometimes seem whinny-ish. They often roll to standing, swish their tails, snort, paw at the round with their hooves, prance in circles when agitated... lots of horsey mannerisms. I based mine more off hot-blooded types as opposed to more somber, staid breeds, so tehy're also big into acting out, very passionate people given to loud songs and dancing.

as far as the weight ratio I wouldn't worry. A horses head and neck weigh a LOT, like REALLY a lot, a human upper body wouldn't be much heavier unless he's overly muscular or really fat. Perhaps you could have the human body begin at ribs up. That would help with balance and get the head closer to the ground. In order to drink water or eat off the ground the "waist" or what ever you would call the part connecting horse shoulders and human body would need to be flexible.

In order to adapt the horse body you could give it a heavy bone structure in the hind legs and hips to increase balance and add muscle mass to carry the few extra pounds. Weapons would make most sense if they are like humans in the sense that they are omnivores who learned to hunt, or if they have been in contact with other races who taught them this concept, but any intelligent race is capable of developing them out of necessity.

As others have mentioned, ears, nostrils, even whiskers (people often forget that horses have them) would be needed for the centaur to keep all their hosey-senses

Almost all mammals have whiskers (exceptions being things like the platypus). However, they're not really useful on a human face, provided usual lighting and space conditions. My centaurs are more vision and scent intensive, but their hearing isn't as good as a horse's because they usually have human ears.

I'm not sure what the fascination is with the human half bending to the ground to get food. Humans don't eat off the ground. We have arms.

Mine don't bend that low without good, or at least interesting reasons because blood rushes to the head and gives them headaches. For instance, when trying to see their own bellies or junk (often in response to teasing from other centaurs, but also if they suspect a tick or other parasite might be lodged in something 'down there').

When designing a culture around the back end of a horse and a human's sensibilities, I found it terribly interesting that centaurs can't reach their own butts, bellies, genitals or even back legs. They can't wash those places or treat them for injuries. They cannot clean their own tails, wash manure from their fur or clean out their own hooves. If one has a tick on his balls, he must go to someone else to have it removed. If a friend teases him for having any oddity of the junk, he must take the friend's word for it or seek a second opinion.

Bad me for not answering! Life have been a bit mean to me, so I didn't get the chance. A huge thanks to all the nice people in here answering my thread though! <3 All those answers taught me alot! C:


I'm considering giving my centaurs a small bit of a horse-like face; to give the face a mule-like appearance. That would easily give the creature larger nostrils, for example. (Hope that made sense, my English seems to fail me). Also horse-like ears, because I find the hearing important to them.

I'm still considering the hair on the human-body. The most logical thing is that they would be covered in short hair, since they need something to keep warm, but that will make them look strange to me. I think I'll have to get some concepts of the fur-part done.


@seigfried007
I read about giraffes a while ago, and apparently they have some kind of mechanism to prevent them from getting all the blood in their head when they bend down.
Wikipedia says: "In the upper neck, a complex pressure-regulation system called the rete mirabile prevents excess blood flow to the brain when the giraffe lowers its head to drink."
I'm trying to find some more information about this, and maybe apply it on the centaurs. They might only need a less powerful variant o this, since they have arms to pick things with and don't have to bend down to the ground.

The whole fact that centaurs can't reach parts of their own body makes a great social reason and would probably make the bonds between them pretty tight, which I find a good thing!


@WoahKate:
Are those creatures you're talking about satyrs? I heard of this man, though I never read much about him. I've always seen him portrayed as a human though, that's why I'm a bit unsure. Satyrs I'm going to include in my story though! They're lots of fun!


Happy writing!

Satyrs are part goat, not part hose. The creature described above seemed to be sort of like a centaur if you stuck the human torso on the hind ligs of a horse rather than the whole body.

Well, if you really want to get technical, Page, satyrs were part horse. The original Greek satyrs (featured in satyr plays which were served to lighten the mood after tragedies) were men with the ears and tails of horses.
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What is typically now known as a 'satyr' is actually a faun. Satyrs acquired the goat features after the Greeks met the Romans (who then started mixing mythologies, so that in Latin literature, satyrs were described as nearly identical to fauns). Fauns are more nature-oriented than bacchanal. They were cowardly, subversive (hence, root of the Latin 'satire'), dangerous and, perhaps a bit too good at that whole party thing.

Would there be any chance of putting a horse appendage on a man ?