Thread: Higgs Boson Question

A question about physics, mainly about the Higgs Boson, I am currently writing a fiction in which the MC can turn the god particle off, the question is what would happen to a bullet in mid flight once it enters a a no mass zone (an area where the Higgs is off)? would it bounce off an object like marshmallows or would it float like in space?

Seeing as the Higgs boson isn't actually proven yet darknite, you can theoretically say anything you'd like about it

However, if an object, like your bullet, enters a zero-mass zone I speculate it'd either come a complete and sudden stop or unravel into nothingness.

The first speculation is based on the formula Force = Mass x Acceleration, multiply anything by 0 (mass-less) and you get 0. Therefore no more force acting on the bullet, stops.

Second based on if it no longer has mass, you could argue that it can't exist any more.

Up to you which you choose, or go for something else entirely.

Hate to contradict you cefor, but you messed up the physics. We are not dealing with forces here. So you used the wrong equation. (In any case an object with zero net force continues to move at exactly the same speed).

Conservation of momentum (mv=constant) and energy (1/2 mv^2 = constant) both imply an infinite velocity at zero mass. But these are both based on newton's laws, which break down at high velocity.

Based on einstiens work the maximum speed anything can go is the speed of light. Your mass would be converted entirely into energy, travelling at the speed of light, in exactly the same direction it entered. The amount of energy produced would be according to E=mc^2.

More interesting would be what happens when the object leaves the no mass zone. Thats up to you. You could convert it back into mass (in which case it slows back down to the speed it entered). Or it could remain energy (continuing on at the speed of light). Either is plausable, or even a combination of both.

I'm no physicist, so verifty my stuff before you use it. Issac Asimov wrote an interesting piece based on the same principle (and he was a physicist). Can't remember what its called, but it was a sci fi murder mystery short story. Worth reading if you are serious about the concept.

Originally Posted by Bourbon

As I understand it, the predicted Higgs Bosun suffuses all space. 'Turning it off' or negating its effects in some way, would evict the property of mass from all particles. Gravity would cease holding things together. Nothing larger than individual particles could exist.

I imagine that, if, in the context of your story, you contrive a way of creating an isolated area, such as you mention, anything that entered that area would probably disintigrate at the speed of light. They wouldn't even make a mess.

I dont know if I understand it right, but what about if the MC just manipulates the higgs parameters so the would be light as a feather, causing it to bounce off. I would really like to make the bullets bounce off like marshmallows. Having them disintegrate is not a bad Idea too. Thanks for the ideas though, seriously Ive never even thought of the things you guys suggested. Ill think those through. ^_^

Originally Posted by BoredMormon

Hate to contradict you cefor, but you messed up the physics. We are not dealing with forces here. So you used the wrong equation. (In any case an object with zero net force continues to move at exactly the same speed).

Conservation of momentum (mv=constant) and energy (1/2 mv^2 = constant) both imply an infinite velocity at zero mass. But these are both based on newton's laws, which break down at high velocity.

Based on einstiens work the maximum speed anything can go is the speed of light. Your mass would be converted entirely into energy, travelling at the speed of light, in exactly the same direction it entered. The amount of energy produced would be according to E=mc^2.

More interesting would be what happens when the object leaves the no mass zone. Thats up to you. You could convert it back into mass (in which case it slows back down to the speed it entered). Or it could remain energy (continuing on at the speed of light). Either is plausable, or even a combination of both.

I'm no physicist, so verifty my stuff before you use it. Issac Asimov wrote an interesting piece based on the same principle (and he was a physicist). Can't remember what its called, but it was a sci fi murder mystery short story. Worth reading if you are serious about the concept.

Crap, so we were... momentum is obviously the thing here! Hah, been a year since I studied Physics, I'm a bit rusty

But, like Bourbon said I'd imagine that the bullet would actually cease to exist, disintegrating is way cooler anyway

Cheers,
Cefor

Originally Posted by darknite_johanne

I dont know if I understand it right, but what about if the MC just manipulates the higgs parameters so the would be light as a feather, causing it to bounce off. I would really like to make the bullets bounce off like marshmallows. Having them disintegrate is not a bad Idea too. Thanks for the ideas though, seriously Ive never even thought of the things you guys suggested. Ill think those through. ^_^

Your safest bet would be to make up a new particle and run with that. Unless you have a degree in quantum physics don't try run with real stuff. Just make it up in a belivable matter. Your character doesn't have to understand what he is doing.

If you intend to market to scifi readers be aware of the main physics rules. Conservation, thermodynamics, relitivity, speed of light ect. Don't get me wrong, you are allowed to break these rules. Just make sure that you explain it. And any physicists in the story need to make a big deal of it.

Can we rename this as the Geek thread?

Originally Posted by Sigg

i agree with boredmormon, unless science is already sort of your thing, i wouldn't try to take things from real life, especially theoretical concepts, and try to explain why they allow extraordinary things to happen.

Just make up something new, say it's an alien technology that the characters don't understand. Or just leave it as an 'unexplained phenomenon', I mean unless your MC is meant to understand how it works you should just as well leave it out. 3 things could happen if you try to take real life physics concepts and apply your own spin.

1.) non-science readers could just get confused with the explanations (especially if the story isn't really targeted at a hard SF market)
2.) the science readers will poke tons of holes in your explanation and be put off, go hang out with some trekkies and you'll see what I mean.
3.) You manage to make a solid, detailed, realistic explanation of an otherwise wholly theoretical idea in physics. Then you can ask yourself, after all the effort you put into making that explanation, has your story actually gained anything?

Not that it isn't an interesting idea, but I think this is not a very effective approach to what you are trying to accomplish in the story.

Sigg and BoredMormon, That is something I was really worried about since writing the novel. Thanks for bringing it up. My MC controls molecules, he sees them, rearranges them and manipulates them. He's like a scientific mage that produces magic in explainable phenomenon. His ultimate weapon is supposed to be something that negates mass thus making him almost invincible, bullet's and physical attacks won't work , hence the Higgs, but yes, you said it. I run the risk of failing as an author if ever LHC wouldn't find the particle they were looking for, or if ever they find something else. Then the novel is doomed.

or just like you said, I'm not a physics person, some other genius will probably foil my evil plans! hehe

Originally Posted by darknite_johanne

A question about physics, mainly about the Higgs Boson, I am currently writing a fiction in which the MC can turn the god particle off, the question is what would happen to a bullet in mid flight once it enters a a no mass zone (an area where the Higgs is off)? would it bounce off an object like marshmallows or would it float like in space?

The Higgs Boson only deals with Weak Force, and thus the bullet, which depends on Strong Force for it's coherence would not be affected by removal of the Higgs Boson particle and just pass though the "nill space" unaffected.

Or at least that is what I could figure out, after looking into that.

but the idea sounds fun, do what you want with it.

Okay, so I need a new particle to replace the Higgs boson.... :<

Originally Posted by Ungood

The Higgs Boson only deals with Weak Force, and thus the bullet, which depends on Strong Force for it's coherence would not be affected by removal of the Higgs Boson particle and just pass though the "nill space" unaffected.

Or at least that is what I could figure out, after looking into that.

but the idea sounds fun, do what you want with it.

Affecting any of the four fundamental forces would cause disentegration, to a lesser or greater degree. A bullet would disentergrate if you removed electromagnetic (would burst into flames), weak (nuclear explosion), or strong (antimatter explosion). Only removing gravity would leave it intact.

If the Higgs Boson is related to one of the forces then it wouldn't affect mass at all (this seems far more consistient with physics, but to be honest I don't care enough to research any of it). I would again suggest making up your own 'mass' particle.

Originally Posted by Mike C

Can we rename this as the Geek thread?

Lol, I think thats a great idea.

Originally Posted by darknite_johanne

Sigg and BoredMormon, That is something I was really worried about since writing the novel. Thanks for bringing it up. My MC controls molecules, he sees them, rearranges them and manipulates them. He's like a scientific mage that produces magic in explainable phenomenon. His ultimate weapon is supposed to be something that negates mass thus making him almost invincible, bullet's and physical attacks won't work , hence the Higgs, but yes, you said it. I run the risk of failing as an author if ever LHC wouldn't find the particle they were looking for, or if ever they find something else. Then the novel is doomed.

or just like you said, I'm not a physics person, some other genius will probably foil my evil plans! hehe

I don't think your novel would be doomed if the theory you put into practice turns out to be false. The issue really only comes up if you put too much of a focus on this concept. If you just explain it in the story the way you just did now as "he manipulates matter on a molecular level to create seemingly magical effects" then it shouldn't matter if the higgs boson things doesn't pan out. You can still mention it if you really want, but as long as you don't make that particular theory as a central idea in the story, then it won't make a difference if it is actually true or not.


neat idea by the way

Originally Posted by BoredMormon

Affecting any of the four fundamental forces would cause disentegration, to a lesser or greater degree. A bullet would disentergrate if you removed electromagnetic (would burst into flames), weak (nuclear explosion), or strong (antimatter explosion). Only removing gravity would leave it intact.

Where did you find this info?