Who's The Hardest Poet To Understand? - Page 5 - Writers Forum

The Backward OX · 09-15-2007, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baron

If you study phonetics, Ox, then you'll find that this is more sophisticated than you may think, yet another irony. The fact is that it works and a story can be discerned even out of the nonsense rhyme. This is why it is a masterpiece.

I think I always recognised the phonetic value of the words. But, not knowing the author's background in my earlier days, that was forgotten in the general notion I was reading meaningless nonsense. Next, in view of your comment that a story can be discerned -- which after all is perhaps unsurprising, coming as it did from the mind of a mathematician/logician -- I would have to say that I could study it until I lost the will to live, and still possibly wouldn’t see a story there. I guess I’m not as smart as I thought I was.

Baron · 09-15-2007, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Backward OX

I think I always recognised the phonetic value of the words. But, not knowing the author's background in my earlier days, that was forgotten in the general notion I was reading meaningless nonsense. Next, in view of your comment that a story can be discerned -- which after all is perhaps unsurprising, coming as it did from the mind of a mathematician/logician -- I would have to say that I could study it until I lost the will to live, and still possibly wouldn’t see a story there. I guess I’m not as smart as I thought I was.

Can you honestly not get the story of the slaying of the jabberwock on a sultry afternoon?

The Monty Python team discerned enough of a story to get a movie out of it.
Jabberwocky (film - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

sardpete · 09-17-2007, 11:40 AM

Of course the funny thing is he himself said it was meant to be a parody on how not to write a poem

meldy · 09-17-2007, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baron

Can you honestly not get the story of the slaying of the jabberwock on a sultry afternoon?

The Monty Python team discerned enough of a story to get a movie out of it.
Jabberwocky (film - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

I understood the basic gist of it..but still dont know if those wierd words are actually words I have never heard of or just nonsense.

And Monty Python (and I love them and have ALL their movies!) is hardly the standard by which you define a story lol
They are VERY well know for just nonsense.

Lordy..where is the story behind hiding behind a bush to not get blown up??

And Now For Something Completely Different................

Mike C · 09-17-2007, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Backward OX

I would have to say that I could study it until I lost the will to live, and still possibly wouldn’t see a story there. I guess I’m not as smart as I thought I was.

Maybe an asbergic thing?

Try reading it out loud, without regard for any meaning, just enjoying the rhythm. It's truly sumptuous.

Mermaid on the breakwater · 10-13-2007, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hodge

Too complex. A sort of "look at how smart I am as I masturbate all over the paper!" kind of complex.

I just read it online lol because I never had looked at Elliot before and I can safely say, that it's not genius it's over self indulgence, the kind I don't consider to be clever.

If it was genius, it would be infinitely complex but infinitely easy to read. Whats the point in prophesising the end of the world if nobody can understand you?

ClancyBoy · 10-13-2007, 08:31 AM

Ezra Pound

He's batshit insane and writes his poetry in about seven languages all mixed together.

ClancyBoy · 10-13-2007, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Backward OX

THAT’s not sophisticated

THIS is sophisticated:

`Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.

Playful? Yes. Brilliant? Absolutely. Sophisticated??

ClancyBoy · 10-13-2007, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mermaid on the breakwater

I just read it online lol because I never had looked at Elliot before and I can safely say, that it's not genius it's over self indulgence, the kind I don't consider to be clever.

If it was genius, it would be infinitely complex but infinitely easy to read. Whats the point in prophesising the end of the world if nobody can understand you?

His intended audience at the time understood him. That is, other writers and poets.

Wafti · 02-03-2008, 12:01 PM

oops, double post.

Wafti · 02-03-2008, 12:02 PM

Quote:

"I never had looked at Elliot before and I can safely say, that it's not genius it's over self indulgence, the kind I don't consider to be clever."

I've only read J. Alfred Prufrock, but it is a fucking masterpiece. I've since heard it read by Alec Guiness, and love it even more. No it is not over-indulgence and yes it IS genius. If you dont realise that then, in full awareness of how arogant this will sound, I declare that you have not understood it. Genius can go over people's heads. The theory of relativity went over mine until I beat its inaccessible wisdom into my brain. T. S. Elliot is similar such genius.

If you dont understand it, I'm sure there's plenty of us - including myself if you would like - who would happily explain.

Shawn · 02-04-2008, 08:42 AM

I once picked up a copy of The Illiad in Greek; so I'd have to say Homer.

Among English speaking poets? I'd say Cummings for the simple fact that it takes a bloody long time to find out which minute little rules he broke to make a point. Not to mention you think he means one thing but he's actually talking about a hoe-down.

God I hate Cummings... I capitalize his last name just to piss him off.

satie · 02-06-2008, 05:15 PM

i'm surprised no one has mentioned Auden. whilst often he is is perfectly perceptable, often his referencing seems to require specialist knowledge. famously Larkin wrote to his friends in a state of confusion over many of Auden's lines.

the mention of Berryman is well-placed; he is damn-near impenatrable at times.

just to comment on the TS Eliot debate; i like TS Eliot a lot as a poet because he combines seemingly elitist references with lines of poetry that at once seem whimsical and witty, with a great magnitude of profundity behind them. the best examples of these are in Prufrock, although the book of old possums is similar in its layered approach; as in, it can be seen aesthetically as a poignant way of wording a sentiment, whilst similtaneously being loaded with historical and contextual meaning.

ClancyBoy · 02-09-2008, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banzai

Yeah, definitely Eliot. The Waste Land and The Hollow Men in particular had me scratching my head for ages.

Seriously? The Waste Land is deliberately obtuse with all it's references to classical literature and mythology, but I find The Hollow Men as clear as clear can be.

The hardest poets are the certifiable schizophrenics. If you can get through the Cantos of Ezra Pound you must be as insane as he was.

Let me post an excerpt:

Quote:

Canto LXXXI

Zeus lies in Ceres' bosom
Taishan is attended of loves
under Cythera, before sunrise
and he said: "Hay aquí mucho
catolicismo--(sounded catolithismo)
y muy poco reliHión"
and he said: "Yo creo que los reyes desaparecen"
(Kings will, I think, disappear)
That was Padre José Elizondo
in 1906 and 1917
or about 1917
and Dolores said "Come pan, niño," "eat bread, me
lad"
Sargent had painted her
before he descended
(i.e., if he descended)
but in those days he did thumb sketches,
impressions of the Velásquez in the Museo del Prado
and books cost a peseta,
brass candlesticks in proportion,
hot wind came from the marshes
and death-chill from the mountains.
And later Bowers wrote: "but such hatred,
I had never conceived such"
and the London reds wouldn't show up his friends
(i.e., friends of Franco
working in London) and in Alcázar
forty years gone, they said: "Go back to the station to eat,
you can sleep here for a peseta"
goat bells tinkled all night
and the hostess grinned: "Eso es luto, haw!
mi marido es muerto"
(it is mourning, my husband is dead)

Et Cetera

Yeah. Stream-of-consciousness free verse.

FYI, the Canto's were used as evidence in Pound's trial for sedition to prove he was insane.

virginia · 02-11-2008, 09:33 AM

I am so grateful for this thread. Until I read T.S. Eliot (as a mature student at University of London ten years ago) I wrote non-stop poetry. Called myself a poet (before journalist, etc.), and aimed for the day I’d be published.

Then Eliot came along, with his “Waste Land”, “Prufrock” and the rest. and killed my confidence. I stopped. After all, if this was “free verse” (i.e. no rules), and I couldn’t make sense of it, then how senseless was I?

Whereas, sonnet writing with all its rhyme-schemes and meters... oh, I could follow that. And the Romantics? Well, then I was home. Keats – my hero! – helped me earn my degree and I’ll love his Odes forever. And didn’t Wordsworth say something about writing for the “common man” – so that everyone could understand? Exactly. That’s how I believe poetry should be.

Oh, thank you for this thread. Maybe I’ll start again!

Virginia

P.S. I wrote my dissertation on Milton’s Paradise Lost!