In wake of Virginia Tech - Page 2 - Writers Forum

penforhire · 04-21-2007, 11:11 PM

You will never get into the writing business because you cannot handle criticism.

Pussy.

Lost Kosmonaut · 04-21-2007, 11:27 PM

I hope you know I'm laughing. I wonder if you noticed my mention of not wanting to be in the writing business. I wonder if you even understood my explanation of where criticism is due. How do you criticize poetry when poetry is as relative as emotion itself? Stories and other things of the sort, I can see that kind of structure, but not here.

Some forms of poetry don't have mass appeal, and probably wouldn't sell in the market of literature, but that doesn't mean they're incorrect.

That last line says alot about you.

CroZ · 04-22-2007, 12:25 AM

Quote:

as others have noted, you seem unsure who you're supposed to be referring to, the shooter or his victims...

I got the feeling he was writing about both sides as one - trying not to place one on a higher level, but to commemorate both.

Is it just me or is Seung-Hui Cho getting his 'martyr' wish granted?

ruksak · 04-22-2007, 01:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lost Kosmonaut

bump.

c'mon

You posted this less than 5 hours after posting your poem. It hardly comes across as sensitive. It seems you wanted people to read your poem more than you wanted to write it. I can't help getting the feeling you want sympathy for yourself more than anything.

Well, you asked for comments. You got what you wanted and then you didn't want it. That's one of the oldest stories going.

Lost Kosmonaut · 04-22-2007, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ruksak

You posted this less than 5 hours after posting your poem. It hardly comes across as sensitive. It seems you wanted people to read your poem more than you wanted to write it. I can't help getting the feeling you want sympathy for yourself more than anything.

Well, you asked for comments. You got what you wanted and then you didn't want it. That's one of the oldest stories going.

Yes, I posted that a whole 5 hours afterward because I came back, dissapointed that nobody had found it remotely interesting enough to respond to. I didn't base it on the time frame, though, I based it on the fact that it was already near the bottom of the page.

And how could you possibly know my motives? It takes very little effort to 'bump' a page, and adversely it takes waves of creativity to write poetry. I don't see where you derived that conclusion from.

I wonder how much of my rebuttal you took to heart and how much you plainly ignored and took for nonsense. Here we had two forum gurus telling me how I was writing poetry was incorrect (and needed to be changed), when, in fact, all they were trying to do was to get me to conform to guidelines that would make it more interesting for them. I was a little perturbed, as you might imagine. I should think seniors would be a little more knowledgable about how poetry should be criticized.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CroZ

I got the feeling he was writing about both sides as one - trying not to place one on a higher level, but to commemorate both.

Is it just me or is Seung-Hui Cho getting his 'martyr' wish granted?

Well, no that's not the viewpoint I had in mind when I wrote it, but you're welcome to interpret any way you like. I don't think he was a martyr; I feel sorry for him in that he was (supposedly) physically abused as a child, but I don't think he was right in what he did at all.

The problem here is that humanistic tendencies to sympathize conflict with numbers. We understand that he did what he did because he was emotionally disturbed-thusly so detached from reality that he went on a shooting spree. But... he killed as many as 33 people. So where does the blame fit in? According to Freud, the blame would be skewed accross every negative influence in his early-childhood development. That makes things difficult, because say he were to live. He would go to trial rather than his step-father, or whoever else made him the way he is. We, as emotional creatures, would have a hard time directing the blame so far in the (elusive) past... and it might damn near be impossible. So regardless of where blame should be distributed, it goes directly to the one man who perpetrated the law.

EDIT: I guess these two did derive from the shooter's perspective

I take it
you had a moment to recall
that night sitting in a stall
when you found the world an endless disaster,
couldn't have wanted anything faster

To end
what was in motion perceived a blend
a mix, but mostly none amend
killing the time with a knife
blaming it on fiction, politics, and most of all life

Pardot Kynes · 04-22-2007, 09:49 AM

Even if you never want to be a writer, you should want to improve. If you are going to do somethign frequently, you should be good at it. Writing requires heart as much as mind if not more, but you need to learn to match the two up even if you don't think you'll write professionally. Because, if you write at all, whether its horribly or well, you are a writer.

And by the way- I liked the poem.

Lost Kosmonaut · 04-22-2007, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pardot Kynes

Even if you never want to be a writer, you should want to improve. If you are going to do somethign frequently, you should be good at it. Writing requires heart as much as mind if not more, but you need to learn to match the two up even if you don't think you'll write professionally. Because, if you write at all, whether its horribly or well, you are a writer.

And by the way- I liked the poem.

I'm happy you enjoy the poem. However, I don't think what the two forum seniors suggested would be any "improvement". Rather, I think it would be conforming to what everybody else wants it to be. I write for myself. I like it when I get at least a little feedback afterward, but I'm not going to fit within the guidelines of readers so they enjoy it more.

Because, say I changed it and those two enjoyed it more. Maybe you would like it less. They would call it "improvement", and you would comment on how that "improvement" has made it less entertaining to you. Where's the accompishment in that?

Pardot Kynes · 04-22-2007, 09:58 AM

None, unless you're writing for money, which you said you wouldnt. So, that works.

dannyboy · 04-23-2007, 02:13 AM

'1. I don't care about readers who don't care for my style of writing. Sometimes I will create something that seems to communicate a solid idea, and maybe you will like that more. But it's all relative. Conforming to you is pointless to me, as it destroys what I created in a fit of emotion, and while what I change might appease you, it might not do the same for others.
2. I meant it to be from a personal, one-on-one unanswered questioning of someone who died. But did you consider that maybe the individual phrases or stanzas themselves were meant to convey more than the general idea? Even the rhymes (which have no meaning in themselves) feel strong to me. The flow (if I were to read it to you) and emotion communicated by hearing the poem read aloud finds even more feeling. Here, the whole is lesser than the sum of its parts.'

then again I'll ask - why this forum. This is a workshopping forum. It will draw comments from people who offer their opinions so that you might improve your work. If you are not interested in those opinions why post it here?

In terms of point 2. Any criticism here is an attempt to help you as a writer (usually with regards to the specific poem posted) or sometimes the forum because some treat it as a place to simply post without thought to what this forum is trying to do (no matter how blunt the crit there is usually a reason, though m,any seem to just get angry) but at no stage does anyone seriously think you will change your writing style to suit them.

You should (and by you I mean all of us as writers) consider the points made and then either accept or reject - thats up to you and is fine.

I would think, however, that the greatest solipsism is to believe is it only your way or the highway. There is no need to attack mm personally for her critique. Ignore what she says by all means but understand she does say it with the best of intentions.

If you do not wish to hear those thoughts of hers (and others) then again I ask - why post here? Send it off somewhere to get published, or find a more suitable forum that is about reading without the workshop emphasis that this forum has.

And please, at no stage is this personal, it's just about the work. Keep it there.

Lost Kosmonaut · 04-23-2007, 06:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dannyboy

'1. I don't care about readers who don't care for my style of writing. Sometimes I will create something that seems to communicate a solid idea, and maybe you will like that more. But it's all relative. Conforming to you is pointless to me, as it destroys what I created in a fit of emotion, and while what I change might appease you, it might not do the same for others.
2. I meant it to be from a personal, one-on-one unanswered questioning of someone who died. But did you consider that maybe the individual phrases or stanzas themselves were meant to convey more than the general idea? Even the rhymes (which have no meaning in themselves) feel strong to me. The flow (if I were to read it to you) and emotion communicated by hearing the poem read aloud finds even more feeling. Here, the whole is lesser than the sum of its parts.'

then again I'll ask - why this forum. This is a workshopping forum. It will draw comments from people who offer their opinions so that you might improve your work. If you are not interested in those opinions why post it here?

In terms of point 2. Any criticism here is an attempt to help you as a writer (usually with regards to the specific poem posted) or sometimes the forum because some treat it as a place to simply post without thought to what this forum is trying to do (no matter how blunt the crit there is usually a reason, though m,any seem to just get angry) but at no stage does anyone seriously think you will change your writing style to suit them.

You should (and by you I mean all of us as writers) consider the points made and then either accept or reject - thats up to you and is fine.

I would think, however, that the greatest solipsism is to believe is it only your way or the highway. There is no need to attack mm personally for her critique. Ignore what she says by all means but understand she does say it with the best of intentions.

If you do not wish to hear those thoughts of hers (and others) then again I ask - why post here? Send it off somewhere to get published, or find a more suitable forum that is about reading without the workshop emphasis that this forum has.

And please, at no stage is this personal, it's just about the work. Keep it there.

What goes over my head is what you would think would make the poem better. You've suggested things but how would that integrate? I'd like you to look at what I've written and 'change it into a better piece'. Change it to what you would plainly look at, and say something along the lines of, "I think this is excellent." Because when you can do that, and retain the original feeling and direction the poem had beforehand, I will admit that your criticisms were valid. What exactly would make it better? Chop this stanza? Use this word instead? c'mon.

I didn't attack "MM" any more than she did me. She accused me of being a child with poor vocabulary and grammar skills (unrequited, it seems), and all I did was point out that she, herself, was not practicing good grammar. I don't think I was wrong in doing that at all.

dannyboy · 04-23-2007, 06:48 AM

her critique is not her working on a poem/looking to be work shopped - your poem is looking for criticism (that's why it is posted in this forum) - that's the difference.

dannyboy · 04-23-2007, 07:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lost Kosmonaut

I'm sorry
it must've been a lonely drop
like falling from a mountain top
greeting the sunny sky,
as the clouds pass, goodbye - very cheesy rhyme scheme. sunny sky - cliche, clouds pass goodbye - almost nursery ryhme-ish

Hey
did you kiss the wind before the end? - how do we kiss the wind - abstraction. Meaningless image.
did it taste like unaccomplishment? - what is unaccomplishment?
could you tell me what it's like, - can you?
I wouldn't blame you if you lied - S1 aabb ryhme scheme S2 no scheme except a half-ryhme with like and lied.

Now that you've lost
the words which take cost - take cost? Think about that... it seems an attempt to ryhme with lost but grammatically poor structure, break rules for a reason, to me, making something ryhme is not a good enough reason.
Would you pay back in full? - S3 now back to aa.

Did you laugh-
when sanity was all but gone you lingered
I warned you don't take kindly to foolish strangers - again, in these first 3 lines the grammar is very strange and I can see no reason why.
Or did you run-
from the bullet of a gun
but we were having fun - now the rhyme scheme has fallen into aaa - why?
would you listen for the sound
of a hollow round
kissing the back of your neck
with pressure, I will check
no more playing in the sun
but we were having so much fun. - then back into a progression much like the first S bbccdd

I take it
you had a moment to recall
that night sitting in a stall
when you found the world an endless disaster,
couldn't have wanted anything faster - back to the aabb of stanza1

To end
what was in motion perceived a blend
a mix, but mostly none amend - grammar - does not make sense here.
killing the time with a knife
blaming it on fiction, politics, and most of all life -ryhme scheme again aabb

Now that it's over
would have replied by moving closer?
closer, and closer? - half-rhyme which I think works but the repetition of closer, closer weakens the effect.

Did you cry-
warranting pity measures
taken in the presence of a hapless mind
Or did time just stop - does not make sense - a total abstraction.
...
could you think about your friends back home?
sitting with them, and simoultaneously all aone? - spelling and childish cliche rhyme home all alone -I'd like a dollar for every time this rhyme has been used.
Did you measure the time it took
to lock shut your little-black-book - lock shut - lock or shut, do not need both. It doesn't help the flow, in fact I'd suggest the lock shut again makes the poem seem nursery ryhme-ish.
As pages whirred by
you think "please, god, I don't want to die"
What kind of an excuse is that?
Remembering that at the drop of a hat
it could all be over,
I assume you could have acquired a lover, - jumping all over the place to find the ryhme. Here you have introduced lover - why?
caught a fish, - still jumping...
jumped up and down endlessly in a pile of leaves
because whatever you meant to me
would mean the same to family for once you bled,
and now for you they bleed,
replacing hate with only necessities
replacing your world with memories.
can you tell me
what it's like down there?

edited 4/21

Who are you addressing? Why have you made the ryhme choices you've made?

To me this seems like a poem that is trying to use a structure of ryhme but the structure jumps all over the place (which can work if the reader can discern an intention behind the jumping beyond striving to ryhme)

What about the meter - which I think becomes very important when using ryhme. Without close attention to the meter a ryhming scheme falls dangerously close to child-like sing-song or nursery ryhme.

I understand rules can be broken but for a clear intention, not to make things try and fit together. Or at least not obviously.

Lastly is this trying to be somehow stream of consciousness? Because again I'd argue the ryhme scheme works strongly against it.

I have no idea of your age or your ambition but this being posted on this forum meant I (and others) assumed you wanted this to be work shopped but for work shopping to work you do need to care about the readers on this forum, even those you disagree with - in fact I'd argue most importantly those you disagree with. It is against them you must test your ideas and make sure they work.

That does not mean you must change but here are some of my ideas - take them as you will. They are not personal. I do not know you. I only know this poem. I think the poem needs a lot of work.

Mike C · 04-23-2007, 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lost Kosmonaut

dissapointed that nobody had found it remotely interesting enough to respond to.

That should have been all the criticism you needed.

PaPa · 04-23-2007, 07:48 AM

Way to shit all over a national tragedy with your incompetent verse.

hi5

silverwriter · 04-23-2007, 07:55 AM

1. Writing about something a lot of people sympathize/care about/feel something about/etc won't promise you praise. You have to work (improve your writing) for good critiques.

2. Everyone in this thread had better just calm down. As dannyboy said, we don't know each other, we just know the poem. So let's not keep making this personal.