J.R. MacLean

mjk

hehe, love it. especially like the combination of "wine coloured" and "absorbs"

yawning disgruntled workerbee

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"Words have no power to impress the mind with the exquisite horror of their reality." -Edgar Allan Poe
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Creative Scribblings - a collection of odds and ends

cbaird14

farsighted prof holds
manuscript far from eyes so
as to see clearly.

Enjoying your shorter poetry, yet smoke rings still in my ears. Looking forward to more longer peices.
Thanks
Chris

ms. vodka

alright. i'm gonna come right out and say it.

i just don't get the appeal behind haiku.

i guess i stopped taking it seriously when my sister started throwing drunken haiku parties with her exceptionally white exceptionally middle-class friends. (no offense if you're reading this, Sis)

since you seem to be the haiku king as of late, mr. maclean, maybe you can shed some light on it for me cause at this point in time i think i could write about five million a day without it having one bit of positive effect on the rest of my poetry.

and i'm wondering how it's affecting yours... as you seem to post much more haiku lately than the excellent poetry we used to receive from you.

please don't be offended by this post. i'm honestly curious.

vodka

cbaird14

a respectful and curious echo of the previous

J.R. MacLean

mjk: wine coloured and absorbs. Right. wish I'd thought of that. recticular radishes

v and cb: my thread Some Thoughts on the Haiku a Day Experience may provide some satiation for the curious. You v, whose way with words is both compelling and adorable, are one of the inspirations for the course of action described. If you wish me to blather on any further on the subject, just ask, I'll be happy to do so.

p.s. drunken haiku parties? I have to get out more.

Mackb

I don't know about JR (who does, eh?) but for me Ms V, Haiku is an interesring discipline to make a statement in only 17 syllables. It takes thought, but only a short time to do it. I find it a neat way to get into the poetry mode, sorta like poetry stretches.

Oh lovely Ms V
sadly way too much like me
sharp as a tack's head

(couldn't resist jen :-] )

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J.R. MacLean

mack: excellent input, the key word you mention is discipline, imo utterly fundamental to good poetry

v: "cause at this point in time i think i could write about five million a day without it having one bit of positive effect on the rest of my poetry."
this is just silly. you deserve a good, uh, attitude adjustment.

ms. vodka

yes, i've read your haiku a day experience. i'm still not getting it. no, really, i think i could write five million haikus a day. what are the original rules of the haiku form, as i realize it's ancient. that might help, if i knew the actual rules of the form and thus what makes a haiku so special. i know it's more than syllable count, but what i'm taking from what you are writing is that it's mostly about syllable count. blather on. discipline? please do.

vodka

teflon

How about more people visiting th Haiku challenge? I think the problem with haiku is that writers try to tackle philosophical, pensive subjects. How about painting irreverence, sense of peace, or a dramatic, after-the-fact aftermath?

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J.R. MacLean

Teflon: I think that is an excellent suggestion and insight. The Haiku challenge is a blast and can be visited anytime.


v:
I can only give you my personal take. I'm not knowledgeable about the original rules, the ancient japanese stuff etc. What I decided to do was three lines, 5-7-5 syllables, and use the book of photos for inspiration every day. Why is 3 lines, 5-7-5 special? no idea. Could be it’s a bare minimum for beginning, middle, end, rhythm, balance, imagery, all the elements of a good poem in a highly condensed form.

Let’s switch gears:

Come said the muse
Sing me a song no poet yet has chanted,
Sing me the universal.
In this broad earth of ours,
Amid the measureless grossness and the slag,
Enclosed and safe within its central heart,
Nestles the seed of perfection.


The above quotation by Walt Whitman is on the frontispiece of The Zen of Creativity , sitting, as yet unread, on my desk. Zen, a Japanese form of Buddhism, is all about clear apprehension of the moment. Within each moment, were we only awake to it, is God, Truth, the universal, the seed of perfection, the transcendent, whatever we want to call it. Haiku, my guess is, was developed as a form that could give the writer and reader, through clear communication of the essence of a moment, a glimpse of perfection. For me, the feeling of a great haiku is of diving, through the image evoked, into an experience of transcendence. All great poetry is a journey from which we return transformed. The best haiku is the same, just a real quick trip, like beaming down from the Enterprise.

Discipline. The word comes from disciple, one who follows a Master in quest of higher truth. When I wrote that comment to Mack, I had it in my mind that words are like little disciples. They have grown out of human consciousness and are one of the means by which we can hope to return to Truth. Why? Because words represent sounds, aspects of the great sound (AUM) or word ( In the beginning was the word) that created this universe. I told you (jen) once that I loved the respect you have for words. This is part of the discipline of a real poet, the felt knowledge that through the dance of words we can be lead home.

The more mundane aspect of discipline is the simple fact that practice makes perfect. In Haiku practice, by consistently aiming to evoke the essence of a moment and touch on the transcendent, I know that I’m going to fall short. But by constantly aiming at the stars, one might just hit the moon. In down to earth terms the demands of the form force one to dig deep for every syllable of every word. Read mjk’s account of her latest haiku, for an idea of what’s involved. How can such practice not but help one’s other poetry? I’ve unearthed words like zephyr because ‘delicate breeze’ just wasn’t going to fit.

Some happen spontaneously = extraordinary delight.
Some require huge revisions and work =satisfaction.
Many remain works in progress = poet's usual lot.

There, enough blather, at least for now.

by the way cbaird has started a thread on the purpose and power of poetry that may be of interest....

(Sunday morning) : Found some historical stuff: "When Chinese Zen first taveled to Japan in the thirteeth centruty, the arts followed and ..the integration of Zen arts was was partially prepared during the Heian period (794-1185 c.e.) when the courtesans of Japan created an artistic legacy that later became the foundation for the Zen aesthetic.// These brilliant women artists originated spontaneous verse, a poetic form that eventually developed into haiku, the pithy three line poem that has become so identified with Zen. The poetry of the courtesans had many of the traits already present in the Taoist inflected Zen art of China's golden age- a deep appreciation of nature and a keen awareness of the evanescence of life. ..the courtesans ...gave their artistic expression a distinctly Japanese flavor...we see the emergence of wabi, sabi, aware, yugen...wabi is a sense of loneliness orsolitude. Sabi is the suchness of ordinary objects, the basic, unmistakable uniqueness of a thing in and of itself, . Aware is a feeling of nostalgia...Yugen is mystery, the hidden, ineffable dimensions of reality."
quoted from The Zen of Creativity by John Daido Loori, Ballantine Books, 2004, p:4-5

mjk

wow, j.r.- i don't know how much i can contribute to this, as you've provided quite a well rounded picture of haiku. i think your blathering might be more enlightening than my babble.

for a comprehensive history on the evolution of haiku, wikipedia offers quite an explanation.

as far as the contemporary "americanized" haiku, wikipedia offers this...

so basically the form of haiku is constantly evolving as is the languages in which it is composed and each writer uses a unique style to suit his/her message.

for me, this haiku a day experience has proved much more difficult than i had originally expected and infinitely more rewarding. each syllable must be contemplated in order to fully articulate my intended meaning. this has definitely overlapped into my other writing, as i aim for the biggest punch in the fewest words, so to speak. there is nothing more rewarding than the satisfaction of composing a captured "moment" and expressing an image, a thought, a feeling in seventeen syllables. the power of language cannot be denied. for anyone considering jumping on this train, i urge you to do so.

bah... i love how i can talk about the importance of brevity in so many damn words. hehe. i hope i've shed some light, at least coming from my perspective. j.r., as always, spontaneous figs.

__________________
"Words have no power to impress the mind with the exquisite horror of their reality." -Edgar Allan Poe
***
Creative Scribblings - a collection of odds and ends

Mackb

Wow JR and mkj, I had no idea that you two could put more than two dozen words in a single post...lol

My understanding of Haiku is that it started as Japanese expressions of the four seasons in verse, but their words are so different than English, that their poetry doesn't translate as well and so much of the beauty is lost on us.

"Americanized haiku" is considered to be "watered down" poetry. Howerver, as many of us have found out the hard way, it is still a discipline of mind and patience to say something profound in three lines of 5/7/5 syllables.

It may be a challenge considered trite or useless by many, but it is a good way to knuckle down and say what you need to say, succently.

Ms V, with your mastery of English and desire to be a serious poet, you should give haiku a try. I say that guardedly because you will make us all look bad....lol

Try it Ms V and everyone reading this, you'll like it, you know you want to...

__________________
When we're young, every day is cheap but the older we get, the more we esteem our time. However if you've faced death and lived, every day becomes precious.

Some of my favorite sites include:
http://www.writersbeat.com/forum.php?referrerid=205

ms. vodka

that's the thing though.

i've never been one to do something because everyone else is. quite the opposite, really.

i would really like to see gigi jump in on this thread, as i know she is more than a little knowledgeable in regard to haiku.

vodka

J.R. MacLean

v: pwahak puk puk puk puk pwahk puk puk puk