Posting guidelines - Writers Forum

Baron · 03-29-2008, 06:44 AM

Is it wrong to expect newcomers to read and follow the forum posting guidelines? Discuss.

Pete_C · 03-29-2008, 08:02 AM

No, it's not wrong to expect newcomers to read and follow the guidelines. However, I think everyone on here should, at times, also reread the posting guidelines. They are there for a reason, but it should also be remembered they do not fully encapsulate the Dos and Don'ts of any forum.

The guidelines are there for guidance, and I appreciate that when they are ignored it can create a lot of frustration for all concerned. People see their work slip below the watermark, or you see one user post several pieces of work that all display the same errors or weaknesses, and you do wonder why they don't test the water, listen, think about it and maybe repost the poem after it has been revised, or post something else with the lessons learned clearly applied.

I think it would be fair to say that many of the gripes on the forum surround work disappearing before it can be carefully considered and responded to. However, stopping people flooding the forum with their work is just one part of it.

Most people who use different forums (and I use many for diverse things like cooking, banjo, motorcycles, football, building work, dwarf hunting and travel) will understand that the vast majority (and all the good ones) have an ettiquette that is unwritten. This is enforced by general behaviour, and administered with little more than advice to newcomers or those that step outside the general behaviour of the forum. They learn that, as in any society, to flaunt ettiquette is to place them in a less than satisfactory position. However, sometimes - for various reasons - the ettiquette on forums can break down. Often this is a snowball effect that stems from simple frustrations.

Here are some examples that happen on many forums. There is a rash of new members who are over-excited and start multiple threads. People who get shoved off the front page subsequently bump their threads. Bumping is usually frowned upon as being unfair, but those that do it feel justified because they been pushed off the front page. However, if I view a forum where bumping occurs, I tend to see the place as less structured or rules-based. This might lead to newcomers disregarding the guidelines.

I have also used forums where multiple responses are frowned upon. If ten people comment, you should use one post to thank all ten. That's why there is a multi-quote option.The use of ten posts to thank each person individually on many forums sees you warned or banned. Again this is a part of forum ettiquette, and if ignored, can make newcomers feel the place is pretty much a free-for-all.

Equally, chit-chat in threads, off-topic conversations and irrelevant posts are a problem. The final effect is that work travels up and down the pages like buggery, and those who have posted either bump work or post more threads to try and get a look in. It's a self-perpetuating problem that can lead to posts getting few if any comments, and it divides the members.

None of the above is, when all is said and done, wrong according to the guidelines. However, it makes a forum less enjoyable, and makes many newcomers give up.

Yes, newcomers should read and follow the guidelines, but existing users should also read them again. If everyone considers their input, then the forum will obtain a natural pace that suits anyone. As soon as people start going off topic, chit-chatting, starting multiple threads, making irrelvant posts or replying to each single post with another single post, the equilibrium will be destroyed, and the usual spate of bumping, multiple threads and general chaos returns.

I think if people come into an orderly and generally self-managing forum, they will treat it as such, and a little word of advice will correct those who transgress usual behaviour. If they see chaos, they'll contribute more chaos.

It would be very nice - and would serve everyone well - if all the annoynaces ceased, if the guidelines were followed and if a general consideration from all parties - new and old - ensured that posts had a longer lifecycle. However, as soon as anyone moves away from such an approach, it has a knock-on effect that soon spirals into chaos.

Well, that's what I think anyhow.

Baron · 03-29-2008, 08:23 AM

I think that most of the points that you've made are good and worth considering, Pete. It's unfortunate that the poetry forum can become very chaotic at times. The more it retains a sense of community the less chaos there is.

Pete_C · 03-29-2008, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baron

It's unfortunate that the poetry forum can become very chaotic at times. The more it retains a sense of community the less chaos there is.

I think often the "community" creates boundaries that newcomers are happy to settle into, and the "rules" kind of exist as a result of that. Maybe the guidelines could be expanded, but I think most people will respond in the way they see the forum working anyhow.

Perhaps we need a meterphorical lawn that transgressors have to mow if they breach the guidelines! That was the way when I was a lad. We had the best-kept lawn in London.

Olly Buckle · 03-29-2008, 04:05 PM

When I read the intro thread sometimes I feel that it is us needs to remember what the forum's stated aims are. They come in eager to learn and get advice and I think of some of the naff, opinionated, wrong headed, off subject stuff I read, or I think of people who post thread after thread, confident in their own ability, not looking for or receiving any real advice, and handing out plaudits in a... Ok I don't think I need to go on, if only some of us were more like some of them. That said there is also what's the matter with them, can't they read!

rainhands · 03-29-2008, 05:28 PM

I think it's a newcomer's responsibility to read the posting guidelines, decide whether the site is for them, and if so, follow the guidelines. When people come in and immediately get defensive about their poetry, or post nine things all in one go with multiple spelling and grammar errors, or don't seem to be taking anyone's advice on board to improve, then it really disrupts what the site is trying to achieve. If the site is dedicated to helping people improve their writing then these people aren't suited to that environment.

It would be like someone coming into a house and wanting to be part of the family but disregarding the way things were run and simply doing what they liked. Ultimately it's someone coming into an existing site and community, and they're not the ones running it, so they have no right to barge in and start either demanding things be done their way or getting defensive about their actions.

Mods and regular members do a lot to keep websites functioning well and it seems very little to ask that people do their small bit by reading the guidelines and keeping in line.

Ilasir Maroa · 03-29-2008, 09:33 PM

First, I'd like to echo previous comments, with special regards to Pete and rainhands.

I'm farily new to forums, and when I do something I think may be a bit murky rule-wise, and it's not adressed in the guidelines, I usually leave a little note asking someone to correct me if I have done something wrong. In general they do. If I don't like certain rules, I might end up receding peacefully into inactivity. No arguments, no purposeful rule-breaking. I feel this allows the community to handle problems easily, and enforce the rules and expound upon the etiquette in a friendly and cordial manner.

I have been a very active member on a forum or two where barely any newer members seem to have read the rules. It's gotten bad enough that all introductions began to include members of all ranks leaving polite reminders to read the rules next to their hellos. Plenty of people, new members with general forum experience, and older members from the forum generally were kind in pointing out violations. Most people got it down in no more than two weeks. Of course, that forum was much smaller than this one.

On a large forum, you have the benefits of more responses(generally), and w ider variety of backgrounds. You also have problems with the fact that the amount of members present and joining makes it more likely that a disruptive person will join and hang around. Sometimes, you just have to deal with it. try to be forgiving on the first few warnings, and just report or ignore the real troublemakers. There's often little else you can do. Even administration-supported rules often get broken and disagreed with. Informal guidlines aren't going to be followed as well or as often, and will generally be restricted to more regular members. It's unfortunate, but likely.

Olly Buckle · 03-29-2008, 11:52 PM

Speaking of guide lines, how is this thread discussing "poetic technique, form, style or such"? Thought I would ask, I felt such a discussion would make an interesting read.

Ilasir Maroa · 03-30-2008, 12:30 AM

It isn't... guidelines aren't rules!

Baron · 03-30-2008, 03:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olly Buckle

Speaking of guide lines, how is this thread discussing "poetic technique, form, style or such"? Thought I would ask, I felt such a discussion would make an interesting read.

Another aspect of this, Olly, is it unreasonable to expect mods and admin to keep an eye on the forums to see that people are following guidelines? When members correct newcomers it frequently results in flaming and even ongoing feuds with other members of this forum. A word in time from admin might prevent both. When someone is multiple posting, for example, it really isn't that difficult to see.

Olly Buckle · 03-30-2008, 05:29 AM

We do try Baron, there is quite a lot that gets removed without ever being seen by anyone else as I know that several of us start off by visiting "New posts" when we first log on. The thing is that we are not paid staff working systematically on rotas so some things are bound to get missed. The thing to do is hit that little thing like a road sign at the bottom of your personal info. box and report it, or send a pm to the member of staff you think will deal with it best. That keeps you out of it and alerts us. Different staff take different approaches, I probably cut a little more slack than most, which can mean that nothing shows on the forum but I have sent someone a pm saying "cool it". That is certainly the approach I would take with some young newbie putting up multiple posts, I have had the most humble, embarrassed apologies on such occasions from people who would probably have slunk of in shame if I had rebuked them publicly, then we would have lost an eager young member.

rainhands · 03-30-2008, 06:40 AM

Quote:

Speaking of guide lines, how is this thread discussing "poetic technique, form, style or such"? Thought I would ask, I felt such a discussion would make an interesting read.

Ah, it's all in the "as such". Either that or you didn't read the small print.

ash somers · 03-30-2008, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baron

Is it wrong to expect newcomers to read and follow the forum posting guidelines? Discuss.

i really dont know and i really dont give a shit
i'm here to exchange in knowledge, not bitch
about what isn't, i pay attention to what is

rainhands · 03-30-2008, 10:02 AM

Not bitch about what is or isn't what?

valeca · 03-30-2008, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baron

Another aspect of this, Olly, is it unreasonable to expect mods and admin to keep an eye on the forums to see that people are following guidelines? When members correct newcomers it frequently results in flaming and even ongoing feuds with other members of this forum. A word in time from admin might prevent both. When someone is multiple posting, for example, it really isn't that difficult to see.

Not unreasonable, no. But do keep in mind that depending on the day of the week, there is anywhere from 500 to 2000 new posts being made per day on WF (with fewer being made on the weekends). It's difficult to monitor them all. It's not unreasonable to expect that we'll miss some.

Edited to add: Couple that with the time it takes to clean up the forums when things do come up, dealing with irate members who want nothing more than to hurl insults because they don't agree with something, checking links to make sure they're at least pseudo-writing related and answering the questions asked by members via PM, along with trying to implement the suggestions given by members. It really can become a full time job, but we do it because we love it here.