ms. vodka

the thing i don't understand is this strange attitude in this situation that knowledge is bad.

what are you afraid of?

that if you actually take a class on it or learn from a professor that you might have to wake up and try a little harder?

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Skidding Through the Mud Incognito
confessions of a modern day poetess

Voodoo

Vodka, lovely.

I'm just wondering. Is anyone confusing free verse with rigid verse? Both have a strong ethic of structure, and, in fact, I'm more inclined to stress the form in free verse than I am in rigid verse, in which case I might just throw in a rhyme and break the shit about so it's a sestina.

ms. vodka

poetry critique
is not meant
to be
musical chairs
where everybody
gets a seat.

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Skidding Through the Mud Incognito
confessions of a modern day poetess

Voodoo

Poetry critique --
not meant to be
musical chairs,
where every ass
gets a seat, and every ass
is called a lord.

Mermaid on the breakwater

Poetry critique -
is not inteded to be
harsh criticism,
where aspiring poets
get a bashing and everybody,
called an ass.

Voodoo

I don't know if you're saying

// Critique is not intended as a thing of malice (it isn't) but it's sometimes construed as such, mistakenly.

Or

// Critique is not intended as a thing of malice but some people still make it malicious.

Well, some people are assholes, but the intelligent assholes tend to bring up a few good points about something.

Like racism;

We are all racists, every person every born with skin, or without it.

In this case;

None of us can write worth a pearly fuck!

No, there's no need to be an asshole in a critique, but reserving higher critique for the poetry gods around here is a fucking elitist idea in itself.

Foxee

Not sure who you're addressing, ms vodka, but, believe it or not, I do agree with you. Never said knowledge was a bad thing or that it shouldn't be sought.

By the same token I think people can write it while they learn, that's all. It probably won't set the world afire (though I wouldn't rule out the odd genius who can) but fun is important, too. So is practice. Refinements that come with study can be added along the way, don't you think?

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If the staff were bent on policing your thoughts there would be nothing but a smoking hole where the debate forum used to be.

Voodoo

Foxee, of course. Everyone here is still in their poetic infancy (don't deny it, vodka, you know how I mean it) and no one here has come close to mastering message or form (especially if they think they must be at odds)

It's more towards those folks, who'd prefer to choose a side over another -- those are the people who need help.

Baron

Then you should respond to treatment and take your own medicine.

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Mermaid on the breakwater

I think you need to question your definition of racism, but that's by the by.

I happen to think a number on this board can write well, including myself and yourself.

Nobody has said they're reserving critique for the poetry Gods around here. Who has? Or, who's used words to that effect?

Intelligent assholes? Who are they? I haven't mentioned anybody who fits into that cat.

Voodoo

Another note (perhaps two?)

I do believe Baron said this thread isn't about me, and I'd like to agree.

Secondly, it's certainly the author's right and curse to judge which advice to follow. Personally, I've not gotten any critique which has pissed me off, or threatened me, not for a while. I don't think I've insulted anyone (though I've certainly received that brunt) in the miracle two or so days I've been back.

(I've not said once I've mastered anything. I've told you my opinion of myself. If you think what I've been telling some people is just harshness, you need to realize it's some basic shit and I don't comment on the ideas of the poem so much as its construction because people get pissed when you fiddle with that. If someone intends a poem to be bad, and they make it bad, then they've achieved some measure of success. The opposite certainly applies, and is less harmful to the environment.

It's very funny how the issue is still being skirted.)

Eiji Tunsinagi

LOL That's what I'm talking about.

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"nothing is perfect, nothing lasts, and nothing is finished."

"how will you go about finding that thing the nature of which is totally unknown to you?"

Voodoo

Mermaid on the breakwater;

Well, no, if I may say so. Compare us to the poet laureate and you'll find an egregious imbalance. Good enough is a brand on the forehead.

If you note, as mentioned by Eiji, the american (NY, not sure which, though he was, or is) poet laureate doesn't stress form, but I bet he could stress it to a fucking orgasm if he tried. He knows what he doesn't do, as opposed to not knowing what he does or does not do.

No, poetry gods wasn't the exact term used. Baron stated the higher end critique should be given and received to/by the people who can stand it (The Poetic Elite -- not the irony in this facetious shit, and, whilst these select few would achieve superstardom, those Who Can't Handle It would be left to rot in their own incompetence.)

The post to which you refer (Pale will find that pretentious, but hey) wasn't addressed to you exclusively, no.

Eiji Tunsinagi

That's a good point. A writer like Collins or someone writes as they do not because they can't show off their crazy forms and experimental what-not -- they choose not to (because they know no one likes that stuff??) Allot of people write like shit because they simply can't put out better, not because it's a personal choice to write simple nursery lines (or essentially the equivalent) You just know you have a problem when you start making excuses for your foolish or ignorant mistakes and not just saying "Yeah, I should read more poetry or (God forbid) take a [god-damn] class."

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"nothing is perfect, nothing lasts, and nothing is finished."

"how will you go about finding that thing the nature of which is totally unknown to you?"

Baron

Is the same expected of a first year student as of a graduate? You argue only to justify your own offensive attitude. This whole debate has been more than adequately put into perspective by ms vodka nd Pete C. From that point on this thread has taken on all the characteristics of the debate forum.

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