Poetry Discussion(#2: Elitist Poetry,lol) - Page 3 - Writers Forum

Baron · 10-24-2007, 05:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete_C

I think the point for me is as follows.

Let's start with craft. You learn your craft and you understand the rules (being the methodology laid down by those that went before), and these help you to understand the mechanics of what you're doing. Any fool can learn them by rote. So, therefore anyone could rightly claim to be a skilled poet given some application and a bunch of academic texts. Is craft essential? Yes, it is, at some level. Is it enough to stand alone? Most certainly not.

Next we have feeling, emotion, the weaving of words to create something that is pleasing. That pleasure could be in sound, tone, imagery, plot, the germination of thoughts. These elements are particular to the reader. This is, in my mind, the product. Is the product essential? 100 per cent. Is the product enough to stand alone? Sometimes, and in certain cases, most definately.

Sadly, those that treasure craft above product, or those that feel craft sets them apart, are usually boring writers. Think of other forms of entertainment media; film, photography, painting, music, etc.. The rules are constantly being ripped up, and sometimes new developments happen by mistake. However, it seems if you try the same with the written word, those that think craft is all will ridicule and parade your alleged wrongdoings through the streets as if the witch-hunts had never ceased.

Such attitudes stiffle creativity and experimentation, and are akin to some smug painted telling Picasso about perspective. The best response to those that adopt such attitudes is to ignore them and put their twiterings down as background noise. Either that or just tell them to fuck off. There is room for writers that follow the rules (whatever variant they wish to follow), writers that bend the rules and writers that wipe their collective arses on the rules.

Those that understand the potential of the written word try to nurture, encourage and assist regardless of the so-called 'craft' a writer exhibits; that's why editors exist. Those that don't understand quote the fucking rules time and time again like traffic wardens (and we all hate those bastards, eh kids?).

Ultimately, any writer can inflate their ego over how well they think they've crafted their work, and can prop up the ego by belittling the works of others. However, the real judge is the reader. I don't subscribe to the theory that if we pander to the readers' whims we'll hit the bottom of the barrel. That's just fucking condescending. We don't have bookshops carrying nothing else but Jilly Cooper and Jeffrey Archer; people are discriminating.

There are people who will pick up a book of poetry for the same reason they play a record or look at a painting or eat in a restaurant or watch a film; they seek pleasure, whether that be to make them think, laugh, cry, question themselves, etc.. As soon as the writer thinks he's above his readers, he's fucked. The only place left for him (or her) is to go to writers' groups and tell everyone how fucking clever he/she is.

Also remember that usually the most skilled are those that use their craft sparingly and in unusual or unexpected ways.

Well, that's my tuppence worth.

Your tuppence worth is the best and most common sense that I've read in this debate, with ms vodka coming a close second.

Foxee · 10-24-2007, 08:15 AM

How much do you actually have to know? I mean, I intend to learn more about the craft of poetry but someone recently used the term 'enjambment' and I was entirely lost.

Yet I can craft a semi-respectable poem sometimes. (I hate saying that...it feels like I'm painting a target on myself)

So do people really need to go and attend Poet University before they can put pen to paper? Or is it ok to learn as we go?

Pete_C · 10-24-2007, 08:57 AM

Foxee, you've made my day. I can't stop thinking about what an utter shower would attend Poet University. Can you imagine the posturing and sniping and general vaccuous shite that would be spouted. Poet University! It's a sitcom waiting to happen.

Baron · 10-24-2007, 08:57 AM

This forum has people posting at different levels and I find it irritating when critiques are made with the apparent expectation that every poem published on the forum is top grade. It isn't so. If the workshops are functioning properly then people at all levels should be able to learn and grow here without being crushed by unnecessarily harsh critiques. They should be reserved for the more advanced poets who are able to take it.

Most of the terms that you need to know can be found with a simple Google search. I think Ilasir has explained recently in another thread the definitions of a few terms used.

Foxee · 10-24-2007, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete_C

Foxee, you've made my day. I can't stop thinking about what an utter shower would attend Poet University. Can you imagine the posturing and sniping and general vaccuous shite that would be spouted. Poet University! It's a sitcom waiting to happen.

LOL, Pete. I'll be expecting to see 500-1,000 words on the subject soon, then? Poem or short story I think you'd be the man to write it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baron

Most of the terms that you need to know can be found with a simple Google search. I think Ilasir has explained recently in another thread the definitions of a few terms used.

Thanks, Baron. I know that but I suppose it's nice of you to point it out.

ms. vodka · 10-24-2007, 11:55 AM

there is no need for a poet university.

but those who refuse the tools being handed to them will continue to pound pound pound on the ground with a large rock with no real success.

poetry is a craft, and knowing the rules does not mean that you have to be an asshole, and it does not mean that you have to create work that is boring.

an asshole is an asshole really regardless of what they know.

to pretend that you can just sit down and bash out any poem on the keyboard without paying any mind to how to turn a line, how words sound and feel when they're used together, rhythm, etc. etc. is an insult to the art form.

and it is an art form.

and foxee, if you don't know what enjambment is, you really should.

hang me for that if you wish.

but it's true.

certainly there are people of all levels posting here, and that is fine... but when a poet posts on a critique forum and then refuses good critique, it's that person who is the asshole, not the person who has thus wasted their time critiquing.

Baron · 10-24-2007, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ms. vodka

there is no need for a poet university.

but those who refuse the tools being handed to them will continue to pound pound pound on the ground with a large rock with no real success.

poetry is a craft, and knowing the rules does not mean that you have to be an asshole, and it does not mean that you have to create work that is boring.

an asshole is an asshole really regardless of what they know.

to pretend that you can just sit down and bash out any poem on the keyboard without paying any mind to how to turn a line, how words sound and feel when they're used together, rhythm, etc. etc. is an insult to the art form.

and it is an art form.

and foxee, if you don't know what enjambment is, you really should.

hang me for that if you wish.

but it's true.

certainly there are people of all levels posting here, and that is fine... but when a poet posts on a critique forum and then refuses good critique, it's that person who is the asshole, not the person who has thus wasted their time critiquing.

I cannot disagree with what you're saying except to say that critiques can be given without crushing the writer being critiqued. You don't teach by destruction.

TinyMachines · 10-24-2007, 12:07 PM

i don't really know the definition, but isn't enjambment kind of like the poet's version of syncapation?(sp?)

Pete_C · 10-24-2007, 12:12 PM

Enjambment?

It's a carriage return.

Chuck one in wherever you like.

If others agree, they say: "Nice Enjambment".

If they disagree they say: "You bastard, you crushed the Muse with your clubfooted ignorance, damn you."

That's on page 27 of the "Be A Great Poet" text book, available exclusively from the Poet University

Baron · 10-24-2007, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete_C

Enjambment?

It's a carriage return.

Chuck one in wherever you like.

If others agree, they say: "Nice Enjambment".

If they disagree they say: "You bastard, you crushed the Muse with your clubfooted ignorance, damn you."

That's on page 27 of the "Be A Great Poet" text book, available exclusively from the Poet University

LOL

Foxee · 10-24-2007, 02:14 PM

Quote:

and foxee, if you don't know what enjambment is, you really should.

hang me for that if you wish.

but it's true.

Why would I hang you for your opinion? So you speak plainly.

However, does the fact that someone isn't familiar with the term keep them from hitting the ENTER key and separating a poem into stanzas? No.

My point was that I produced a poem that was fairly well-received without a depth of knowledge of poetry. Probably could do better with a deeper knowledge of the craft.

Ilasir Maroa · 10-24-2007, 02:57 PM

Well, I was going more for a discussion about readers as opposed to writers, but this is a very interesting debate in itself.

In relation to the current discussion, I think craft is very important and that you should actively try to expand your knowledge of it. However, I think that you can write a good poem without putting every possible ingredient into a single recipe. I don't think you have to know the exact meaning of terms, except where necessary to accurately explain an opinion. I think that in all types of writing, people have trouble distingushing a term, which is used in a discussion, from a technique, which is used in a piece.

I can use an enjambement without knowing what it's called, even a great one, but in order to discuss a poem, I think it's important to have a set of terms that mean the same thing to every person. That is called communication, or language if you want to put it that way. You don't need to be able to name your devices to use them, but it helps to know the names so you can explain them, especially in the abstract(sweet blasphemy...).

Voodoo · 10-24-2007, 02:57 PM

"Enjambment?

It's a carriage return.

Chuck one in wherever you like."

They say watch who speaks language to you because you may end up speaking it. If they speak a garbled series of burps but profess distaste for a language of culture and craft, they're probably quite ignorant.

If you don't know how to do something, you probably say it's no good.

ms. vodka · 10-24-2007, 03:02 PM

that's fine foxee... but what is well received on this forum isn't necessarily received on other forums or by people who will put you in print.

if your aspirations as a poet are to be well received on writingforums then you're there, and no, i guess you don't have to worry about poetic device.

but if you have larger aspirations, sooner or later you will have to familiarize yourself with technique. that's just the way the real world works.

and baron, i agree. critiquing doesn't mean bashing, unless the person is a moronic asshole about how they receive critique.

pete c, this is for you:

Voodoo · 10-24-2007, 03:03 PM

--Ilasir, to put it short;

Know what the hell you just made.

To write good poetry, you very likely have to read good poetry. People who read a lot of poetry may not write it, but that doesn't mean they won't know a few terms taught in a high school.

Poetry for the Poets isn't a common thing, because it's actually called Good Poetry. Most people who understand the things employed in poetry, whether or not they write it, could probably turn a decent verse.

--Again;

don't write for morons.