Poetry Discussion(#2: Elitist Poetry,lol) - Page 2 - Writers Forum

Voodoo · 10-23-2007, 08:59 PM

That's not snobbery, that's incompetence.

Fact, I looked at Guernica the other day, in art class.

"A bull is a bull."

I don't know much about visual arts. I'd be tempted to say the work is utter nonsense, and others have given it the fame it has. But, I'd be wrong and I know it.

Ilasir Maroa · 10-23-2007, 09:19 PM

Hmm... now might be the time to rephrase. Ignoring the title, I was trying to say that sometimes, a poet might read right through a metaphor without stopping to think whether or not others get the reference.

Van's poem is an example(perhaps). Understanding the metaphor using his background knowledge, he was at first skeptical that people didn't get it. This is not meant to offend him, just to illustrate a point.

A metaphor in the poem that inspired this was "rifle-scat" This assumes that reader knows what "scat" is, and associate it with the bullets that share its shape. No one here commented on it, but all three of my non-poet friends said they didn't get it. Did anyone here get that reference? And if not, why didn't they say so?

Voodoo · 10-23-2007, 09:28 PM

I figured it was the shit of a gun, the bullets. Holes in the ground.

That's not a complex metaphor. A tree in the wind is much akin to a girl who's been fucked over. Fact is, most of us don't bother reading into a poem. This is a forum and we don't risk injury.

Scat has a shape?

Anyhow.

It's intention, Ilasir. If a poet puts so much into a poem and only some of it gets noticed by any one person, then it's not an abomination. Writing for the masses will very likely not produce anything good.

If they don't read poetry, poets or bankers, then they're probably not the best people to judge your poetry. If they are well versed, then it's probably your mistake.

All this shit about Elitist Poetry is simply that with a kiss -- some dirty shit.

Baron · 10-23-2007, 09:35 PM

I think that it would be a good idea if a board could be opened for poetry discussion so that this one could continue to focus on workshop.

Ilasir Maroa · 10-23-2007, 09:41 PM

You could propse it to the administration...

But personally I think this board is exactly the place for this kind of discussion. It makes it more likely for people to read the discussions, and everyone here has probably had experience with new members completely ignoring such threads when starting to post. I think many people could profit from these discussions, especially those just starting in. It would make critiques a lot easier if each issue didn't have to be individually adressed in a critique thread every time a new person joined the board.

However, if the administration is convinced to create a new board, then it would hardly be objectionable to move these threads to it.

Voodoo · 10-23-2007, 10:27 PM

There are too many posts on this board as it is.

However, if this is a poetic discussion, I'm a rapper.

We are the beginners, ladies (Ilasir -- tell me now) and gentlemen.

Ilasir Maroa · 10-23-2007, 10:28 PM

You've been shot nine times?

Voodoo · 10-23-2007, 10:32 PM

This would be a poetic discussion.

You have your answer now? Don't let children fuck around with matches if the house is made of matches. It's good if the children can realize they're children, but the mindful children will not strike the brimstone.

It's very likely much better that some things be renewed in critiques. I mean, shall this forum have a poetic doctrine that's simply been agreed upon?

Sounds rather fascist.

ms. vodka · 10-23-2007, 11:16 PM

when you come right down to it, the only person you should be writing for is yourself really.

if you're happy with your work it doesn't really matter what anyone thinks of it. if you believe in it, then fuck all else.

if you want to improve, do it for yourself, because you respect the art form and want to do it justice, and because you want to excel in something you love.

if all that really matters to you is saying some shit, letting people know how you're feeling- well, then that's a pretty easy thing to do.

but since this is a public forum, there's always going to be a lot of differing opinions of what is good and what's not. that's cool because it gives you a lot of exposure and opinions to help you discover your voice and intentions.

i would suggest you never take it too seriously, though.

female_writer · 10-23-2007, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ilasir Maroa

I encountered some friction in a recent thread of mine. After hearing the opinions of several people whom I respect greatly in the area of poetry, I took a piece, entitled "I Am What I Am" to some people I know who are not poets in their personal or professional lives. I found that their opinions on the poem were in opposition to the veiw of many of the comments recieved in this forum.

The question I believe this presents is fairly simple in its concept, if hard to state well.

"Does the poet's ability to understand poetic devices cause them to unintentionally overlook devices that may not be as clear or obvious to a causal reader?"

In essence, is it possible for someone who writes and studies poetry to see something like a metaphor or line break as completely clear, when it may in fact be incomprehensible to the average reader?

I fear I may have stated this question in a rather mangled manner, but I hope people will get the gist of it's meaning.

Of course we see the full scope while an average readers view is very limited, and thats how it should be.

If Im in a room with 100 people, maybe, possibly 1 of them is going to know a poem and appreciate it. And most likely its going to be Shakespeare *snoozers.* And even then, there are many writers who dont appreciate poetry, so our pool to draw from is that much smaller - the pool where we can swim freely with others who understand how we can read an old Wordsworth, one that we have seen a thousand times and it will bring us to tears, and boggle our minds for the 1000th time.
The "average" people in our lives just think us a tad artsy-fartsy and tolerate it, loving us anyway but wondering WHY IN THE HELL we are so all consumed with the written word.

Voodoo · 10-23-2007, 11:27 PM

"when you come right down to it, the only person you should be writing for is yourself really."

Yes, that's the reason I'm bothering working on my prose. Weird but fuck, I'm tired.

I've said this elsewhere, as have others, but it's quite nice to think of it like that. Some people write poorly are happy with their work. If, though, they write poorly, are happy with it, but have that crystal liquor in their heads to be happ(ier) with it if they actually didn't produce a lot of shit --

that's quite the fancy.

Female Writer said it in a droll enough tone -- fuck stupid people. No, don't fuck them, just realize they probably don't appreciate poetry because most poetry written is shit, and most of the grey matter in their head is shit.

All done?

female_writer · 10-24-2007, 12:03 AM

Well,
Some are idiots but most simply have brains that are hardwired differently than a more artistically inclined person.

For example, my sis has been down so I just sent her a jaw-droppingly profound little poem to cheer her (mind you, this poem had me on the floor the first time I read it), and she replied simply "Thanks."
Years ago that would have hurt/frustrated puzzled me but now I just go "Ok, I put in my 2 bits, its fine that it didnt move her, Im sure she appreciated the thought."

Right-brainers can lead a lonely existance, thats why its vital that we reach out to other artists via forums like this, et al.

Baron · 10-24-2007, 12:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by female_writer

Well,
Some are idiots but most simply have brains that are hardwired differently than a more artistically inclined person.

For example, my sis has been down so I just sent her a jaw-droppingly profound little poem to cheer her (mind you, this poem had me on the floor the first time I read it), and she replied simply "Thanks."
Years ago that would have hurt/frustrated puzzled me but now I just go "Ok, I put in my 2 bits, its fine that it didnt move her, Im sure she appreciated the thought."

Right-brainers can lead a lonely existance, thats why its vital that we reach out to other artists via forums like this, et al.

After reading some of the recent posts on this forum a hermit's life sounds like Nirvana (and I don't mean the group).

female_writer · 10-24-2007, 01:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baron

After reading some of the recent posts on this forum a hermit's life sounds like Nirvana (and I don't mean the group).

Lies ^^.

Hey, stop replying to me because I really cant come on here anymore

So, take care everyone, youre all awesome.

This will be my last post!

Pete_C · 10-24-2007, 03:40 AM

I think the point for me is as follows.

Let's start with craft. You learn your craft and you understand the rules (being the methodology laid down by those that went before), and these help you to understand the mechanics of what you're doing. Any fool can learn them by rote. So, therefore anyone could rightly claim to be a skilled poet given some application and a bunch of academic texts. Is craft essential? Yes, it is, at some level. Is it enough to stand alone? Most certainly not.

Next we have feeling, emotion, the weaving of words to create something that is pleasing. That pleasure could be in sound, tone, imagery, plot, the germination of thoughts. These elements are particular to the reader. This is, in my mind, the product. Is the product essential? 100 per cent. Is the product enough to stand alone? Sometimes, and in certain cases, most definately.

Sadly, those that treasure craft above product, or those that feel craft sets them apart, are usually boring writers. Think of other forms of entertainment media; film, photography, painting, music, etc.. The rules are constantly being ripped up, and sometimes new developments happen by mistake. However, it seems if you try the same with the written word, those that think craft is all will ridicule and parade your alleged wrongdoings through the streets as if the witch-hunts had never ceased.

Such attitudes stiffle creativity and experimentation, and are akin to some smug painted telling Picasso about perspective. The best response to those that adopt such attitudes is to ignore them and put their twiterings down as background noise. Either that or just tell them to fuck off. There is room for writers that follow the rules (whatever variant they wish to follow), writers that bend the rules and writers that wipe their collective arses on the rules.

Those that understand the potential of the written word try to nurture, encourage and assist regardless of the so-called 'craft' a writer exhibits; that's why editors exist. Those that don't understand quote the fucking rules time and time again like traffic wardens (and we all hate those bastards, eh kids?).

Ultimately, any writer can inflate their ego over how well they think they've crafted their work, and can prop up the ego by belittling the works of others. However, the real judge is the reader. I don't subscribe to the theory that if we pander to the readers' whims we'll hit the bottom of the barrel. That's just fucking condescending. We don't have bookshops carrying nothing else but Jilly Cooper and Jeffrey Archer; people are discriminating.

There are people who will pick up a book of poetry for the same reason they play a record or look at a painting or eat in a restaurant or watch a film; they seek pleasure, whether that be to make them think, laugh, cry, question themselves, etc.. As soon as the writer thinks he's above his readers, he's fucked. The only place left for him (or her) is to go to writers' groups and tell everyone how fucking clever he/she is.

Also remember that usually the most skilled are those that use their craft sparingly and in unusual or unexpected ways.

Well, that's my tuppence worth.