Poetry Discussions(#1: Message versus Form) - Page 2 - Writers Forum

Ilasir Maroa · 10-19-2007, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vangoghsear

This sort of sums up my feeling. A poem with a fantastic meaning will be better if the form is good, and suffer if the form is bad.

That being said, most beginning poets use great form (rhymes just like a sonnet, a repeating pattern, etc.) and lacks any substantial imagery and/or employs a one dimensional flat meaning.

Every poem should have some sort of poetic devices, or form, to distinguish it from prose, but minimal form with a great meaning will make a better poem than great form and little substance.

Actually Van, I disagree a lot with the middle part. Most beginners have horrible rhythms, sickeningly crow-barred rhymes, and little in the way of good poetic devices.

Perhaps it would be better to say they write in a style they think is good poetic form, but it is generally very misguided.

As to meaning, meaning is very important, but I think it has a very broad definition. A single image of something you feel strongly about is a good as a super-themed narrative/ message poem. An apple can be as a peeling a topic as war, or abuse, or slavery, or (dare I say it) love.

Foxee · 10-19-2007, 07:37 PM

Quote:

But I do think it would be interesting to discuss the virtues of message versus poetic form.

About all I know about 'form' is that there seem to be a lot of possible forms. Or sometimes no form at all (seemingly?).

Maybe because of my background in communications I think that getting the message across is paramount.

You need a message worth sending.

You also need the best vehicle (form) to relate it to the reader that you possibly can.

I guess I'm saying both form and message are most important and to the greatest extent you can carry them to.

I probably won't be popular for that.

Baron · 10-19-2007, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mermaid on the breakwater

The devices and all the other nuances of what is essentially poetry are just there to help you put across your message in the shortest way possible.

Then you can forget poetry, just write a brief note

Baron · 10-19-2007, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ilasir Maroa

Actually Van, I disagree a lot with the middle part. Most beginners have horrible rhythms, sickeningly crow-barred rhymes, and little in the way of good poetic devices.

Perhaps it would be better to say they write in a style they think is good poetic form, but it is generally very misguided.

As to meaning, meaning is very important, but I think it has a very broad definition. A single image of something you feel strongly about is a good as a super-themed narrative/ message poem. An apple can be as a peeling a topic as war, or abuse, or slavery, or (dare I say it) love.

Was this deliberate?

Eiji Tunsinagi · 10-19-2007, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baron

Was this deliberate?

LOL. That's form over meaning at it's core, isn't it?

Did I just say core?

Ilasir Maroa · 10-19-2007, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baron

Was this deliberate?

Of course!

Ilasir Maroa · 10-19-2007, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Foxee

About all I know about 'form' is that there seem to be a lot of possible forms. Or sometimes no form at all (seemingly?).

Maybe because of my background in communications I think that getting the message across is paramount.

You need a message worth sending.

You also need the best vehicle (form) to relate it to the reader that you possibly can.

I guess I'm saying both form and message are most important and to the greatest extent you can carry them to.

I probably won't be popular for that.

Why? I agree totally...

huni · 10-19-2007, 11:36 PM

Interesting stuff. As writers our goal is to communicate. Whatever the genre. So we need something important or interesting to say and a working vehicle to say it with. Poems and poets are not different from other writers and means. If we are to do a service to poetry I think poetry needs us to work at our craft, so as to attract an audience. Being academic and 'intellectual' (my words for obscure and riddle ridden) won't attract those people who are not poets but who we need as readers. So - how does that fit form versus meaning? I believe meaning must come first. Poetry was always a vehicle to pass on important lore, law, and information essential to community life. It was aural/oral long before it was written. As an aid to memory poems/songs always rhymed - they had to, to ensure accurate transmission of the aforementioned important material. Poetry has shifted of course since then and can be enjoyed on the page with out the necessity for memorisation. This opened the way for many different forms to exist. Including over 100 yrs. ago "verse libre" or free form. Note it is a form still. Not a free for all, line broken ramble. This seems to be where writers, bad, lazy or otherwise use 'free' as an excuse to write any rubbish and say content/meaning is the thing. Anything worthwhile is worth packaging well. What package we use is open to the writer. But an ugly, thoughtless gift can't be enhanced by pretty packaging and bad wrapping will spoil the best, most beautiful gift. It may even mean the items remains unopened (unread). So both form and meaning are equally important to me. It's just that meaning comes first in the making of a poem. It would seem pointless to me. But I love the story, so of course. : )

What form is - that may need discussing. This I observe, divides poets more than anything. Some saying that unless a poem rhymes and has recognized meter and rhythm, line length etc. it is not 'real' poetry. Form, to some, seems to mean formal, and free form is seen as having no form. Both are a long way from fact. Even the best free verse poets are bound by (willingly if they are talented, I suspect) conventions and 'rules' of 'verse libre'. Without it free verse, (even assuming they have a good message) risk sounding like a rant or ramble. I'm not sure how clear I am being and feel I am falling into an ever deeper pit. LOL. So maybe that is how poetry will always be. A confusing, unclear, divided subject that raises ire and passion. Well, all I know, and it's not much really, is that I love it and will go on writing and reading and hopefully learning more about it all my life.

Nothing written here is directed at anyone on this site or anywhere else. Pretty much agree with what many have said already. Just some of my own observations. Sorry it's a bit of a ramble and thanks for the thread Ilasir. huni

lin · 10-20-2007, 03:51 AM

If you are writing poems with "messages" STOP. RIGHT NOW. That's not what poems are for and every cockamamie nitwit on the block is out there writing non-poetic doggrel because they think they have a message.

I don't know what femalewriter was referring to, but I would imagine that it's much easier to help people with broke format or grammar than to try to critique their poetics (which doesn't win your friends, believe you me)

lin · 10-20-2007, 03:54 AM

In case that wasn't clear:

There is no room for "messages" in poetry.

Telegrams and AOL messenger and text messenger and messenger pigeons are for that purpose.

Essays are for that purpose. If you have a message, write an essay. That's what 90 percent of contemporary "poems" are anyway...essays whose lines don't reach the end of the page.

Just write a rant and have done with it.

huni · 10-20-2007, 04:19 AM

If by a message you mean a rant, or some attempt to get a point across, (usually one that others will debate) then generally I would agree with you Lin. Some poets have developed poems along political themes (I think of one I read recently about Beirut, beautifully placed in a bird metaphor) and they are well done. Mostly and on forums usually, they are woeful - take almost any of mammamaia's - they end up as doggerel and not poetry for sure.

I took message and meaning and story to be the same thing in the above comments on this thread. (A poem without it is just practice in form). In which case stand by I what I said. (I think lol)

h : )

Mermaid on the breakwater · 10-20-2007, 06:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baron

Then you can forget poetry, just write a brief note

No, because it has none of the power that way. But I would rather read a simple note with meaning than something which is just poetic but without meaning.

At the end of the day, you should try and combine both message and form but getting your message across is the most important thing.

Mermaid on the breakwater · 10-20-2007, 06:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lin

In case that wasn't clear:

There is no room for "messages" in poetry.

Telegrams and AOL messenger and text messenger and messenger pigeons are for that purpose.

Essays are for that purpose. If you have a message, write an essay. That's what 90 percent of contemporary "poems" are anyway...essays whose lines don't reach the end of the page.

Just write a rant and have done with it.

Rubbish, Lin. Message is the essence of good writing, you don't have to present that message in the form of a rant, it can be done abstractly and you should utilise as many poetic devices as you can to do it. But the meaning is the most important thing, without a doubt.

Poetry without meaning and hidden subtle meanings doesn't make a reader go wow or make them think.

Amara-J · 10-20-2007, 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lin

In case that wasn't clear:

There is no room for "messages" in poetry.

<snip>

Essays are for that purpose. If you have a message, write an essay. That's what 90 percent of contemporary "poems" are anyway...essays whose lines don't reach the end of the page.

Just write a rant and have done with it.

Then what's the point to writing poetry, unless it's deliberately written as a bunch of fancy-sounding words without any purpose behind them? The latter might make readers go "Ooh, nice effect" but then there's all there is. No thought-provoking, no analysis, no literature studies. Sounds pretty empty to me; I'd like to think there's something more.

dannyboy · 10-20-2007, 06:50 AM

I think a poet must have something to say and must allow the poem to say it. I think it is said through sound, through form, through image and through flow.

Having said that I strive not to worry about the meaning; to trust meaning triggered the image I have. I concentrate on the image and work with poetic devices around that image and then a message appears (hopefully).