Thread: Rhythm as it pertains to poetry

Poetry is more often written for the stage instead of the page.

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For want of a better charaterization.

Yes, there are still poets who have success with form, even rhyme. But they are almost that famous oxymoron, the exceptions that prove the rule. Anybody showing up in academia and submitting something that rhymes in iambs is going to find himself paddling up the famous creek without the proverbial paddle.

Faber and Faber, who published Pound, Plath, Elliot and many others are still the major independent publishers of poetry. A glance through their current list of publications would show that crafted work is still high on their agenda. It's still what a great deal of the reading public want as well. As I said, everything is cyclical and as the current trends in art have moved back to the representational, so the current trend in poetry is returning to style.

You mentioned a conflict between lyrics and poetry earlier. In reality much of the progressive music scene from the late sixties onwards was driven by poets who were using music to express their work. This is just a return to the minstrel bard. Bob Dylan, Paul Simon and Joni Mitchell spring instantly to mind but there are some new ones around, like Conor Oberst.

Well, I'd call them songwriters with poetic gesture, but that's exactly what I'm talking about. How does a volume of verse compete for popularity with people like that?
Answer is, it didn't. Reading poetry, once a major item in American culture, has been almost completely extirpated. Sure you have literati and academicians reading it, but it's nothing comparable to the public in general.

And oral poetry, by the way, has made some inroads back into popularity. In certain niche populations. And the funny thing is, when you go to a slam or cowboy poetry reading--it rhymes and has meter.
The line between hiphop and oral poetry is so fine as to be invisible.

There's another way of looking at this by the way, a sort of conspiracy where academicians and small specialty presses have dragged "serious" poetry off into the ivory tower and abandoned the hoi polloi to what is, essentially, song.

Originally Posted by lin

Well, that settles that. Though many would note that most poetry readings in bookstores, coffehouses, etc. are just plain ol poetry reading. Which is, yeah, spoken word. ?????

The idea that spoken poetry was what eroded formal poetry is so peculiar I'd better not use any other more fitting adjective.

Actually spoken poetry predates the written word.
And the main reason for meter and rhyme in poems is traceable straight back to the bards and skalds. It's easier to remember. Homer didn't read from notes.
This same principle is why so many stage plays for kids are written in rhyme, as a pnemonic aid.

The golden ages of popular poetry were very much involved with oral performances, from family readings to Chattaquas and tours by famous poets. Vachel Lindsay was one of the "rock stars" of his day, packing in crowds to hear him, groupies, the works. Same thing in UK and Europe.

The idea that oral poetry suddenly caught on in the twenties or thirties and pushed poetry out of form is extremely odd. Or possibly just uninformed.


Yes, there are still poets who have success with form, even rhyme. But they are almost that famous oxymoron, the exceptions that prove the rule. Anybody showing up in academia and submitting something that rhymes in iambs is going to find himself paddling up the famous creek without the proverbial paddle.

I did not mean to imply that oral, spoken poetry is a recent development. Obviously that is not the case. What I meant to say is that spoken word in its contemporary incarnation has eroded, if not superseded, more traditional forms.

For what it's worth, I am far from the only cat who has noted the above phenomena.

Originally Posted by lin

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For want of a better charaterization.

Things tend not to make sense when you quote them out of context.

Originally Posted by Edgewise

For what it's worth, I am far from the only cat who has noted the above phenomena.

People who claim to have been abducted by aliens can always find others to make the same claim.

Things tend not to make sense when you quote them out of context.

Yes, I can see you're attempting that.

Maybe there is a universe in which written poetry (like the stuff this site is swamped in) has been edged out by all those thousands of spoken word events we see around us at every hand.

But not this one.

I'm trying to type my opinion now and it's not coming out right.

It seems to me that songs at some point used to be almost poetry set to a tune. I think I get the idea that rhythmic poetry had to compete, as you would say, with that more modern facet of expression. And then it tried to define itself by becoming more abstract and a form of 'higher art'. Am I right in thinking so?

I would think, however, that it would reinforce the power of rhythm because while songs nowadays may not even necessarily include rhyme in their verses - which they used to - rhythm cannot disappear from it because that's what it's built around. Lyric writers cannot work around the fact that there are certain number of beats in a sentence and that has to go with time signature.

So while musicians are grounded in rhythm, it bewilders me that a lot of poetry has abandoned it.

Maybe I find myself drawn towards rhythmic structure more because I'm also a musician. Something about really good rhythmic structure appeals to me. What I don't get is the appeal of non-rhythmic poetry.

There's some good poetry in rap. The problem for most is assuming that it's only what's on the written page that counts. That said, the books of an English lady, Pam Ayres, sell like hot cakes. It's humourous and it isn't avante guard art but it sells and it rhymes.

Pam Ayres - I wish I'd looked after Me Teeth

Oh, I wish I'd looked after me teeth,
And spotted the perils beneath,
All the toffees I chewed,
And the sweet sticky food,
Oh, I wish I'd looked after me teeth.

I wish I'd been that much more willin'
When I had more tooth there than fillin'
To pass up gobstoppers,
From respect to me choppers
And to buy something else with me shillin'.

When I think of the lollies I licked,
And the liquorice allsorts I picked,
Sherbet dabs, big and little,
All that hard peanut brittle,
My conscience gets horribly pricked.

My Mother, she told me no end,
"If you got a tooth, you got a friend"
I was young then, and careless,
My toothbrush was hairless,
I never had much time to spend.

Oh I showed them the toothpaste all right,
I flashed it about late at night,
But up-and-down brushin'
And pokin' and fussin'
Didn't seem worth the time... I could bite!

If I'd known I was paving the way,
To cavities, caps and decay,
The murder of fiIlin's
Injections and drillin's
I'd have thrown all me sherbet away.

So I lay in the old dentist's chair,
And I gaze up his nose in despair,
And his drill it do whine,
In these molars of mine,
"Two amalgum," he'll say, "for in there."

How I laughed at my Mother's false teeth,
As they foamed in the waters beneath,
But now comes the reckonin'
It's me they are beckonin'
Oh, I wish I'd looked after me teeth.

I think I get the idea that rhythmic poetry had to compete, as you would say, with that more modern facet of expression. And then it tried to define itself by becoming more abstract and a form of 'higher art'. Am I right in thinking so?

You understand that that's just a theory to explain it? There are others, I'd suppose (even some really crackpot ones, as you're seen).

And it's hard to get around the idea that oral poetry is somewhere in between. You could see a sort of continuum between popular songs, then hiphop, then slams, then poetry readings, then poems written on paper. With beat getting less important as we move along that spectrum, and also rhyme starting to fall away, as well.

If you go to reading, you might notice that even the blankest verse tends to take on a cadence when read. It's sort of a natural tendency.

Their is certainly room for a young poet with the drumming disease to move into some interesting areas.

Let me invite you, by the way, to take a look at Vachel Lindeay's poem "The Congo". (Which had a cameo role in "Dead Poets Society", by the way)

Originally Posted by Baron

People who claim to have been abducted by aliens can always find others to make the same claim.

Agreed. Yours are no different.

Different from most poetry being written for stage, not page? Oh, I don't think so. Anybody else think so? Show of hands?
Or is it just cats?

Originally Posted by lin

Yes, I can see you're attempting that.

Maybe there is a universe in which written poetry (like the stuff this site is swamped in) has been edged out by all those thousands of spoken word events we see around us at every hand.

But not this one.

Erecting straw men is a bad habit, friend. I suggest you take up smoking. It is healthier. You should also get out more. Go to some clubs, see some readings, participate in a few open-mics. Because you obviously have no idea what you are talking about.

Written poetry has not disappeared. Nowhere have I said that.

Originally Posted by lin

Different from most poetry being written for stage, not page? Oh, I don't think so. Anybody else think so? Show of hands?
Or is it just cats?

Mew. Here is the line in context. Just to play along with your pathetic dick measuring contest.

A good argument could me made, I think, that the rise of spoken word as a distinct form contributed to the death of more formal poetic conventions, including rhythm, in the public consciousness. Poetry is more often written for the stage instead of the page.

Show of hands?

hi guys and excuse me, could we please stay on topic?

we are all entitled to an opinion, so please be respectful

of the original intention of k3ng's initial post, if you must

stray into flames please take it to your private in boxes

thank you, and regards ash